OT: Scottish Independence/Referendum

[Andy_Faber]

Have to query that last point AF. I'm completely with and share Swale's experience on the point he makes about being able to afford to provide his kids with better experiences precisely because they went to a good state school and he didn't have to make the financial 'sacrifices' you refer to. All that is just a matter of choice, but - and I do have some experience of the independent sector - I don't understand what you mean by...'such life experiences are ingrained in independently schooled pupils'. How?

I did say I don't want to get into a spat on this, the OT is them bloody porridge munching Claymore weilding hordes up North, not schooling, and at the very best we'll all just end up swapping anecdotes to justify our positions. I think you did get my (friend's) point about 'room to breathe', I'll try to be concise like that or not reply as the long rants get a bit boring IMO, and I currently can't think of a concise response.

[ramAnag]

I did say I don't want to get into a spat on this, the OT is them bloody porridge munching Claymore weilding hordes up North, not schooling, and at the very best we'll all just end up swapping anecdotes to justify our positions. I think you did get my (friend's) point about 'room to breathe', I'll try to be concise like that or not reply as the long rants get a bit boring IMO, and I currently can't think of a concise response.

Not looking for a 'spat', or a 'rant'. Just fascinated by the comment and find, what I suppose then is the 'OTT' of 'schooling', to be more interesting than the original OT.
Personally I believe that however important education and schooling doubtless are, nothing is more important to a child than the quality of parenting and it may well be that your own children are simply evidence of that.
Either way, if you're correct, maybe Will Hughes' experience of leadership the other evening is a sign of things to come.

[Andy_Faber]

Personally I believe that however important education and schooling doubtless are, nothing is more important to a child than the quality of parenting and it may well be that your own children are simply evidence of that.

I think both matter a lot, and just 'being at school' is an essential life-lesson, which is why home-schoolers annoy me so much.

[swaledale]

I'm not sure stopping or wanting to stop change is a crime. And wanting to stop the change associated with a rapidly accelerating non-indigenous population is one I can identify with.

Regarding 'people I know avoid perfectly good state schools and nearly bankrupt themselves for no good reason that I can discern', I'm not going to get in a spat on the subject but I'd suggest that you can't discern what you haven't experienced/witnessed. Good for you for investing in your children as you did, but I wasn't trying to make a personal point, and what you say sort of proves my point that YOU had to do it, such life experiences are ingrained in independently schooled pupils

Sorry buts that utter *******s, such life experiences are ingrained in independently schooled pupils? Really? I'm not simply quoting from my own experience in the parenting lark, I have a direct comparison as my brother who went to state school as did I, he finished up with a Phd from Cambridge by the way, sent his kids to independent school, mainly because he ended up in the diplomatic service and was posted abroad for long periods and wanted them to have a stable education rather than change schools every 3 or so years and I can see no visible difference between his children and mine in life views, educational or career achievements.

I've interviewed a lot of people for jobs in many sectors, again those that went to independent schools don't exhibit a wider experience of life than those from the state sector, generally their attitude and personality seems to stem from their family back ground, rather than their educational background - research has also shown that as the majority of pupils who go to indpendent schools tend to come from wealthier families who tend to have a more career orientated approach, plus often of course have those all important networking contacts due to their jobs and social circles and its that makes the difference.

As it is said, a rich thick kid will generally get a better job than a poor brilliant kid, though there is always the exception of course.

I'm not knocking the massive financial gamble you have taken, its your choice and judgement, but I suspect that it will be hard to prove that it has benefitted your kids to a great extent.

Now if kids from poor deprived backgrounds were sent to an independent school paid for by the government, then I suspect there would be a positive cost benefit for the country and the tax payer in that the majority would earn more and provide a better educated skilled workforce.

[swaledale]

I did say I don't want to get into a spat on this, the OT is them bloody porridge munching Claymore weilding hordes up North, not schooling, and at the very best we'll all just end up swapping anecdotes to justify our positions. I think you did get my (friend's) point about 'room to breathe', I'll try to be concise like that or not reply as the long rants get a bit boring IMO, and I currently can't think of a concise response.

I assume your being ironic with the stereotype and not implicitly xenophobic!!

[Ram59]

I went to a state school and maybe I'm being a bit thick here, but you seem to be contradicting yourself swale. Your saying that you see no benefits in independent education and then in the final paragraph, day that if deprived kids were state sponsored, then they would benefit from the independent schools. Which is basically advocating the grammar school system.

[Andy_Faber]

I assume your being ironic with the stereotype and not implicitly xenophobic!!

I'm not going to respond in detail to your other ramble in which, agreeing with Ram59, you end up arguing with yourself, BUT, yes my stereotyping of Scots was highly ironic, I have the highest respect for that proud race, partly because Mrs Faber is one.

[Andy_Faber]

Sorry buts that utter *******s, such life experiences are ingrained in independently schooled pupils? Really? I'm not simply quoting from my own experience in the parenting lark, I have a direct comparison as my brother who went to state school as did I, he finished up with a Phd from Cambridge by the way, sent his kids to independent school, mainly because he ended up in the diplomatic service and was posted abroad for long periods and wanted them to have a stable education rather than change schools every 3 or so years and I can see no visible difference between his children and mine in life views, educational or career achievements.

I've interviewed a lot of people for jobs in many sectors, again those that went to independent schools don't exhibit a wider experience of life than those from the state sector, generally their attitude and personality seems to stem from their family back ground, rather than their educational background - research has also shown that as the majority of pupils who go to indpendent schools tend to come from wealthier families who tend to have a more career orientated approach, plus often of course have those all important networking contacts due to their jobs and social circles and its that makes the difference.

As it is said, a rich thick kid will generally get a better job than a poor brilliant kid, though there is always the exception of course.

I'm not knocking the massive financial gamble you have taken, its your choice and judgement, but I suspect that it will be hard to prove that it has benefitted your kids to a great extent.

Now if kids from poor deprived backgrounds were sent to an independent school paid for by the government, then I suspect there would be a positive cost benefit for the country and the tax payer in that the majority would earn more and provide a better educated skilled workforce.

As I said I'm not getting into a spat on this but it wasn't a gamble, it was an investment. Now, it may still not pay back (although early signs are it will) but the decision was by no means the roll of a die

[ramAnag]

I think both matter a lot, and just 'being at school' is an essential life-lesson, which is why home-schoolers annoy me so much.

I get that completely Swale and I think 'home-schoolers' are generally a slightly bizarre over protective bunch. It is much easier to change schools than change your parents though and in my professional experience it is impossible to over value good parenting and equally difficult to over estimate the damage often done by neglectful or inadequate parents which in turn has little to do with relative wealth.

[swaledale]

As I said I'm not getting into a spat on this but it wasn't a gamble, it was an investment. Now, it may still not pay back (although early signs are it will) but the decision was by no means the roll of a die

Well for someone who does not want a spat, your veiled threat about not getting in a ruck I cant win was a strange post .Ah let me explain the contradiction, though if you read what I put you would find no contradiction, a kid from a deprived background would benefit from the discipline and learning atmosphere whereas a kid that has the support of a family that recognises the value of education does not need that.

It is a gamble, there is no way you can tell whether if you hadnt spent that money on schooling and had them state educated whether they would have been better or worse off. You may believe it to be the case that its money wisely spent, but then thats understandable.