Ot- May calls for election in June.

[ramAnag]

The question now is: 'what effect will the latest monstrous act have on the election and should Manure's match be called off??'

Just don't know anymore mac. Part of me did briefly consider how 'convenient' this most horrible of attacks was for Trump - after his recent speeches - and Mrs. May - after her recent cock ups - and then I dismissed it...or tried to. Is that so ridiculous? Hope so.

As for Man. Utd. Wouldn't want to have to make the decision...again part of me says...carry on and don't let the evil *******s - whoever they are - stop normal life going on but what a target and where there's one suicide bomb belt there may be others. I'm going to the theatre in the area tomorrow as normal and if I had a match ticket tonight I'd still go but making the decision on behalf of others is a different matter. Not easy.

[macstheman]

I'm all for carrying on as normal but what about the relatives/friends/mum and dad of the dead and injured (including those of the children, one of whom was eight!!), how can they carry on as normal?

[ramAnag]

I'm all for carrying on as normal but what about the relatives/friends/mum and dad of the dead and injured (including those of the children, one of whom was eight!!), how can they carry on as normal?

Yep...take your point completely...as I said, 'not easy'. Damned if they do...damned if they don't.

Wow...Mr. Ramjet...back on form when not distracted by nonsense.

'Our expectations of the state continue to rise whilst our willingness to pay for it via taxation continues to fall.'

In a nutshell, Sir. Increased and properly targeted taxation along with a genuine crackdown on tax avoidance/evasion has to be the way forward then? It's not about 'Socialism' or any other 'ism'...it's about social and collective responsibility.

[roger_ramjet]

Yep...take your point completely...as I said, 'not easy'. Damned if they do...damned if they don't.

Wow...Mr. Ramjet...back on form when not distracted by nonsense.

'Our expectations of the state continue to rise whilst our willingness to pay for it via taxation continues to fall.'

In a nutshell, Sir. Increased and properly targeted taxation along with a genuine crackdown on tax avoidance/evasion has to be the way forward then? It's not about 'Socialism' or any other 'ism'...it's about social and collective responsibility.

It is about trying to "impose" social responsibility across the board, but the increase in tax required to correct the ills would be unacceptable to the electorate - 70% tax (inc NI) rates coupled with Brexit would hammer invisible earnings and the City would run a mile - leaving the overall take down despite rate hikes. I suspect there is no solution.

Also social responsibility cuts two ways - if the better off have to pay more in tax to support the social system, then the "takers" in the benefit system must also make sacrifices in the way of socially responsible unpaid labour - cleaning the litter off the streets, helping the elderly, doing those jobs that they consider beneath them (and want the Eastern Europeans to do). Its a two way street in order to try to avoid meltdown.

The alternative is the Pol Pot model - halve your population via starvation, disease and murder. Get rid of the high earners by making them work in the fields as well for a pittance. Totalitarian in the extreme but everyone is broadly equal in their despair.

[Andy_Faber]

It is about trying to "impose" social responsibility across the board, but the increase in tax required to correct the ills would be unacceptable to the electorate - 70% tax (inc NI) rates coupled with Brexit would hammer invisible earnings and the City would run a mile - leaving the overall take down despite rate hikes. I suspect there is no solution.

Also social responsibility cuts two ways - if the better off have to pay more in tax to support the social system, then the "takers" in the benefit system must also make sacrifices in the way of socially responsible unpaid labour - cleaning the litter off the streets, helping the elderly, doing those jobs that they consider beneath them (and want the Eastern Europeans to do). Its a two way street in order to try to avoid meltdown.

The alternative is the Pol Pot model - halve your population via starvation, disease and murder. Get rid of the high earners by making them work in the fields as well for a pittance. Totalitarian in the extreme but everyone is broadly equal in their despair.

The mood on social media today appears to err between repatriation and ethnic cleansing.....

What about compulsory health insurance beyond a given (fairly high) income or asset level? I ask that because I (through a company scheme Mrs Faber is in) already do that on a voluntary basis, in the good years its just a cost, in the bad years it genuinely saved my youngest's sanity, and possibly her life. That would be a massive burden off the NHS, and not a 'tax' as such. Its going away from 'free at the point of need' but so is paying for prescriptions, dentistry and dementia care. I for one wouldn't not vote for a party who wanted to do that.

PROVIDED the NHS got its **** together, and (for instance) dealt with A&E attendees in an order more fair than (for instance) putting people who bring along large family support and make a big fuss first

[ramAnag]

The mood on social media today appears to err between repatriation and ethnic cleansing.....

What about compulsory health insurance beyond a given (fairly high) income or asset level? I ask that because I (through a company scheme Mrs Faber is in) already do that on a voluntary basis, in the good years its just a cost, in the bad years it genuinely saved my youngest's sanity, and possibly her life. That would be a massive burden off the NHS, and not a 'tax' as such. Its going away from 'free at the point of need' but so is paying for prescriptions, dentistry and dementia care. I for one wouldn't not vote for a party who wanted to do that.

PROVIDED the NHS got its **** together, and (for instance) dealt with A&E attendees in an order more fair than (for instance) putting people who bring along large family support and make a big fuss first

That final paragraph sounds as if it's experience based Andy.

Roger...I really have little comprehension of the huge figures involved...but you're saying the tax rise would be unacceptably big. What about such costs as HS2 and Trident? How much of a difference do they make...or would their abandonment make?
Never understood the point of HS2...just spend a lot less money on making the existing trains more comfortable and more wifi friendly. As regards Trident...I'm not being all CND idealistic but...okay we may need a nuclear deterrent - let's face it North Korea would probably have been obliterated by Trump without 1) a nuclear capability 2) their proximity to South Korea - but how much point is there in having something of the magnitude of Trident which, by the time we ever came to use it, the world would be ****** anyway?

[roger_ramjet]

That final paragraph sounds as if it's experience based Andy.

Roger...I really have little comprehension of the huge figures involved...but you're saying the tax rise would be unacceptably big. What about such costs as HS2 and Trident? How much of a difference do they make...or would their abandonment make?
Never understood the point of HS2...just spend a lot less money on making the existing trains more comfortable and more wifi friendly. As regards Trident...I'm not being all CND idealistic but...okay we may need a nuclear deterrent - let's face it North Korea would probably have been obliterated by Trump without 1) a nuclear capability 2) their proximity to South Korea - but how much point is there in having something of the magnitude of Trident which, by the time we ever came to use it, the world would be ****** anyway?

Agree that HS2 is a total waste of scarce resource - who the **** wants to get to Birmingham 10 minutes quicker but the cost is a drop in the ocean compared to what needs to be spent on infrastructure in a more useful arena.

Trident I am unsure about - even Corbyn seems to support it, possibly through gritted teeth, but do we really need our own nuclear deterrent? This is one area where an EU wide defence policy would make sense, allowing us to share the cost, but then again do we want the Germans to have access to nuclear weapons and would we want to get into a nuclear stand off to protect Slovenia, for example?

I suspect we would be annihilated should anything kick off whether we have Trident or not - and certainly the post apocalyptic world would be no fun: but at least it would reduce the funding issues on pensions, the NHS, transport......

[Ram59]

I think there is a misconception about the hs2. It's not just about speed, the existing lines are at capacity and the alternative would be to double the Number of tracks. But there is no room to do this in many places and think of the Disruption to the normal rail service while It was going on.

So, now that we're building a new track, it makes sense to make it as fast and efficient as possible.

BTW, I'm suffering disruption from the hs2 and probably won't get any compensation either.

[KingCharlieGeorge]

The fundamental point of argument here is simply that the "socialist" - in the wider sense of the word - agenda is simply unaffordable.

Prior to the 2008 world financial crash we were coping quite well. It would have helped tremendously if the Tories hadn't borrowed more money than all Labour Chancellor's put together. They have borrowed £1 trillion to-date, most of which went to the wealthy via QE and tax cuts. If that £1 trillion had been spent on the infrastructure & public services most of your points could be invalid. Instead the Tories relished the opportunity to slash public services. If Labour had borrowed that amount we would never hear the end of it, but strangely enough the media, including the BBC, never mention it. Labour would have invested in the economy, as they did from 1997-2008. Investment grows the economy and reduces the debt & deficit.

Why is it our major European competitors seem quite able to deliver the services & pensions you claim we can't? The Tories have cut GDP spending on the NHS from 8.8% to below 6%. Over £50B cuts in pounds & pence. There was an international report in 2012 saying the NHS was the best value for money service in the advanced economic nations. This despite spending considerably less than competitors. The US "private" system costs 18% of GDP with 12% of that funded by the State. We would be far worse off if we had to pay for our services privately, as the USA proves.

Don't get me started on wealth distribution. I presume you know that nearly all of societies wealth is produced by us ordinary folk and nearly all of it is kept by the few. They don't come close to utilising all of that wealth, apart from occasionally divesting it to their favourite causes. Even when they do that they recoup the wealth in very short time e.g. Gates. The very wealthy pay a very tiny fraction of that wealth in taxes. Both Gates and Buffet support a Financial Transactions Tax which would raise billions of pounds.

Financially the UK was in a far bigger mess after WW2 with the debt & deficit, in real terms, dwarfing the current figures. Many argue that QE is a con and that the debt actually is a fraction of that stated because we owe the money to ourselves. It is without doubt that the economic system is contrived and manipulated and could be manipulated to suit the many rather than the few. That would be achieved through infrastructure investment and public services.

I don't intend to respond to any more points because there's too few people to influence on this site. But I do suggest people look up ONS records and study this link: http://www.primeeconomics.org/articl...os059pp0w7gnpe

[KingCharlieGeorge]

I think there is a misconception about the hs2. It's not just about speed, the existing lines are at capacity and the alternative would be to double the Number of tracks. But there is no room to do this in many places and think of the Disruption to the normal rail service while It was going on.

So, now that we're building a new track, it makes sense to make it as fast and efficient as possible.

BTW, I'm suffering disruption from the hs2 and probably won't get any compensation either.

You are right, sorry to hear you will suffer.