Charlottesville?

[sawmiller]

Why, wanting to draw him into a row? Free speech, including the right to stay quiet?

Plenty of folk go fishing on here...

[CAMiller]

To those who say those protesting against the Nazis are as bad or worse. And also the woman mown down and killed deserved it?
Why isn't the culprit being labelled a terrorist. Would have been had he been from a Muslim or non-white background.

I believe Domestic Terrorism was how it was described by the Attorney General of the US.

As for roly's OP about why nothing was posted? Newcastle is 100 miles from Rotherham and suffered a similar fate. Charlottesville is 3000 miles away and it was a completely different incident. In fact if I was to start a thread about every black, white, yellow, KKK, anti-nazi nutter here in the US there'd be no football on here. What do you mean there isn't anway?

[Yak]

I must have missed something Roly puts a topic out there and gets slated for it because some think he's just fishing for an argument.
Doesn't matter if I agree with him or not that's what the board is for.
On the flip side you have some people who post ****e on here just to get a reaction and piss people off and the advice is don't read it if you don't want to cause it's harmless.

[millertop]

I must have missed something Roly puts a topic out there and gets slated for it because some think he's just fishing for an argument.
Doesn't matter if I agree with him or not that's what the board is for.
On the flip side you have some people who post ****e on here just to get a reaction and piss people off and the advice is don't read it if you don't want to cause it's harmless.

He didn't like what Was being said or not being said on the Newcastle thread so started a thread just to have a go at certain posters, did he have an opinion on this topic what he's put a thread up about?

[rolymiller]

Its a very simple point millertop. Some people were very quick to jump on Muslims for their crimes as in the Newcastle thread(rightly so may i add in the case of SOME muslims) but choose to ignore crimes committed by white people as in the american story and white groomers in this country as though it didn't matter. Different crimes in different countries but vile in their own right. I would have expected that decent human beings would have at least recognised- like Brin did for example bless him- that right wing extremists encouraging the idea of supremacy over blacks is wrong and through the medium of violence as well. Only Brin on this thread has chosen to condemn the kkk no one else-Brin by the way i see as a reasonable guy- so can i assume that you don't feel that black slavery is worth commenting on?

Another question I would put to you. Lets say you are a muslim looking at this thread (who like the biggest majority of muslims has nothing to do with child grooming). How would you respond to the Newcastle thread and what happened in America? Would you be happy to be stereotyped as a child abuser? Would you like to think that some white people think that they are superior to you and will use violence to try to ensure that this happens.

[great_fire]

Another question I would put to you. Lets say you are a muslim looking at this thread (who like the biggest majority of muslims has nothing to do with child grooming). How would you respond to the Newcastle thread and what happened in America? Would you be happy to be stereotyped as a child abuser?

The majority don't speak out against it either, if fact almost no-one does, no-one did in Rotherham.

Criticising fellow Muslims is a worse crime than child abuse to the majority of Muslims.

Raping non-Muslim girls is not even seen as being a crime in the majority of the Muslim world, because the Koran tells Muslims to take non-Muslim *** slaves & the Prophet Mohammed took non-Muslim *** slaves.

Making jokes about Islam or drawing cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed are what they consider crimes and what gets them out on the street protesting.

You're making the same error as the rest of the left by assuming that Muslims have the same opinions and values as you, hence the cognitive dissonance that created a group called "Gays for Palestine", people supporting people who want to throw them off buildings.

I've read the Koran and the Hadith, you obviously haven't or you wouldn't be saying such stupid things on here.

[ragingpup]

The majority don't speak out against it either, if fact almost no-one does, no-one did in Rotherham.

Criticising fellow Muslims is a worse crime than child abuse to the majority of Muslims.

Raping non-Muslim girls is not even seen as being a crime in the majority of the Muslim world, because the Koran tells Muslims to take non-Muslim *** slaves & the Prophet Mohammed took non-Muslim *** slaves.

Making jokes about Islam or drawing cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed are what they consider crimes and what gets them out on the street protesting.

You're making the same error as the rest of the left by assuming that Muslims have the same opinions and values as you, hence the cognitive dissonance that created a group called "Gays for Palestine", people supporting people who want to throw them off buildings.

I've read the Koran and the Hadith, you obviously haven't or you wouldn't be saying such stupid things on here.

Dear Mr Fire,

You just can't help generalising can you? Time and again, you let down a sense of intelligent argument with naive generalisation that betrays that despite reading the Muslim texts, you haven't actually spent significant, meaningful time with groups of Muslims.

I grant you:

1. We all have every right to be angry and encourage justice against a significant minority of people in the Muslim community that organise and carry out these shocking crimes.

2. There is a cultural trend historically in the Muslim community (as well as several other ethnic communities) that is overtly patriarchal, the blokes have too much power and many males take advantage of that. We have to keep reaching into the communities and use education, support and where necessary, the law to intervene. We should encourage this of course but let's not get too smug; I was brought up in a mining community, insular and I was aware of a great deal of wife and child abuse on my own street. This was my own experience in several households in the 70s and thankfully we seem to have progressed from this, but let's not kid ourselves that it is a Muslim only problem. I work in a predominantly Christian black African/Caribbean community college in east London (as I've said before) and there are dreadful problems with domestic abuse and homophobia all with roots in the bible.

3. In many places, particularly in Northern towns but even in some small parts of London there is a tendency for Muslim communities, as with any communities to 'ghetto', stick to their own communities and not easily integrate into their fuller community. In isolated examples, of which much are made of, stupid extreme individuals try and impose their Muslim world view on other non Muslims. I've never experienced this in 10 years in East London but it happens, and such idiots need reprimand in the law.

4. Our local authorities have failed the hundreds of girls who have been used by these criminals by being aware of what was happening, and keeping quiet. No defending this. Wrongs were being quite obviously done, but people in positions of authority felt afraid to speak up and we are all right to pressure authorities to be confident in calling out any crimes, especially such awful ones as these, and expecting justice from our laws.

So as I've said before, you and anyone else is entitled to be angry and express you frustration at what has happened. I do too, it is all unacceptable and the cowards at the helm of authority,if proven guilty deserve justice of their own.

But having granted you this, and it ain't just you by any means, you continue to soil your arguments by generalisations: "rape of non Muslim girls is not seen as a crime by the majority of the Muslim world", "what gets them out on the street protesting" and that Muslims don't have the same values as us. I emphasise that I am talking about Muslims in the U.K. here, of whom form a large part of my home and my school/work communities. I know loads of Muslim families very well, understand that some are traditionalists and fit your profile quite snugly, but most, particularly the younger families, ****s and children are very different, have integrated very well through our schools system and are moving above and beyond.

Sadly, I accept that some Muslim communities are not integrating as fast as others, Rotherham definitely being one of them and that's frustrating. But it doesn't excuse generalising a whole people as you (and some others on here) seem worryingly happy to do.

To sum it up, I think that in integrating cultures (for what other option do we seriously have?) we all have to act positively. In several earlier posts on similar issues, I repeatedly asked if you would be willing to send your child to an outstanding school that mixed equally children from ethnic and U.K. backgrounds, in schools taught only in English language, including Muslims, in models shown to be work here in East London. I noticed that you didn't respond to any of these requests, which implies that you are just as much a part of the problem as non integrating Muslims? Surely we need positive solutions to ethnic non integration? You seem to be working against this as much as anyone?

[great_fire]

I know loads of Muslim families very well, understand that some are traditionalists and fit your profile quite snugly, but most, particularly the younger families, ****s and children are very different, have integrated very well through our schools system and are moving above and beyond.

You know that's ****e right? All evidence points to younger Muslims being more radical than their parents.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-radical.html

You only have to look at the number of Muslim women wearing burqas and niqabs now compared with 20, 30 years ago.

[Silly-miller]

Pup these muslims that integrated into our society successfully have been here for years and grew up as British people family's who have come hear more recently have not learned how to integrate nor do they want too. I too grew up next door to a family of muslim Pakistanis and went to a mixed school. They treat women like something they won or bought, arranged marriages and clothes that demean women. At least men don't need to worry about wives shopping budget lol
They change their names when they become adults (odd I know but whatever floats their boats)
And let me tell you this too you may get a nice young Muslim but whoever settled here be it parents or grandparents they are never very nice at all. Nasty, violent and more often than not hurt the children who they think is being disrespectful. They don't see English women as rape because they think only way to offend allah is to abuse a Muslim woman for no reason and under Muslim law if such a crime is committed the offended must pay (in Pakistan its usaly 7 goats)

I didn't get all that from a paper like mail I got it from a actual Muslim at capita 2 years ago. Was a nice guy he said he is ashamed of his grandparents view on the country he was raised in and spoke honestly. Was a shock meeting a nice guy like that my last encounter with a Muslim involved cops and a retraining order when I was 6

[ragingpup]

You know that's ****e right? All evidence points to younger Muslims being more radical than their parents.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-radical.html

You only have to look at the number of Muslim women wearing burqas and niqabs now compared with 20, 30 years ago.

I'm sorry mate but I'm not going to be swayed by a right wing newspaper reporting on a survey by a right wing think tank! You got anything at least a ****y bit more objective?

In fairness to the telegraph they do print some fair responses but it comes down to that same question of what do we do about it? Educate? Integrate? Separate?

Were you around 30-40 years ago? I was a kid then. I think it's fair to day that the numbers of people wearing Muslim clothes has increased, as the community has in the country. I work with two Muslim women in my small college that wear Muslim dress. Both are lively, free thinking and independent individuals. What's your point on it?

I repeat my point that integration is a problem for all communities to make the effort to integrate,if it is going to work. In many communities it does work, and I'm lucky to live and work in one.

There's that old saying that 'of you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem'. As I've said in my original post, I totally get your anger and frustration at the horror that these criminals have done, and the cultural issues in any ethnic community that conflict with our laws, but what positive solution do you see long term?

I guess you have your right wing press reports publishing right wing think tank surveys but I can only say that it doesn't reflect my world and my experience in living within multi cultural communities and actually speaking daily with Muslim families, children and friends,as well as African, Asian and middle Eastern communities that all mix here. But I do get the segregation there is up in my hometown and that it feels different up there. Very frustrating.

Any positive ideas on how we can move forward from here? I must say that in my experience the schools and teachers are generally doing a fantastic job of delivering a multi cultural education that by definition will challenge any cultures (including our own) that want a monolithic approach in their lives. Good. They don't have a place here. And if you refuse to send your kids to a school just because they have a Muslim (or other cultural) presence, then I'm afraid that includes you.