O/T Theresa

[tarquinbeech]

I still don't know on exactly what basis you're calling it a bail out.

The Press Article I sent you was entitled "Too big to Fail"?......there are several articles online that express the same opinion.......I can keep posting them if you want.....Forbes, FT, NY Times

Basically Italy is bankrupt....you said yourself that it was down to previous governments?.......so Italy borrows money from the ECB under strict instructions (from Germany) that the money is NOT to be used to bail out it's banks......I forget the EU directive, but I can find it if you like

Italy "engineered" a bailout via a 3rd party bank and they bought the "failing banks" for 1 Euro.......then it borrows even more money from the ECB.....I have sent you the figures

The EU/ECB know that they cannot foreclose on the debt.....it would collapse the EU/ECB.......so they allow it to continue

It's a bit like me owing you £20,000......but my Mexican hovel is only worth £10,000......I then ask to borrow another £5,000 BUT you know I have gambling debts and you're worried that I'm going to walk away from your debt and collapse your business.......you will lose £10k!! ......you lend me another £5k on condition I DON'T pay off my gambling debts....so I engineer a deal where my cashflow pays BET365.......then borrow even more off you

I'm now your best customer......if I "go under"......so do you

This used to be a point of discussion at every single meeting at Home Brewery/S&N/Heineken......who is "going under".....and then weigh up our debts v secured loans v potential profits.....Tim Martin at Wetherspoons, Derek Mapp at Tom Cobleigh........we even went into the MLSB to collect cash out of the till after the Notts faithful had left.....Scardino was when we sat around and said....no more

[drillerpie]

The Press Article I sent you was entitled "Too big to Fail"?......there are several articles online that express the same opinion.......I can keep posting them if you want.....Forbes, FT, NY Times

Basically Italy is bankrupt....you said yourself that it was down to previous governments?.......so Italy borrows money from the ECB under strict instructions (from Germany) that the money is NOT to be used to bail out it's banks......I forget the EU directive, but I can find it if you like

Italy "engineered" a bailout via a 3rd party bank and they bought the "failing banks" for 1 Euro.......then it borrows even more money from the ECB.....I have sent you the figures

The EU/ECB know that they cannot foreclose on the debt.....it would collapse the EU/ECB.......so they allow it to continue

It's a bit like me owing you £20,000......but my Mexican hovel is only worth £10,000......I then ask to borrow another £5,000 BUT you know I have gambling debts and you're worried that I'm going to walk away from your debt and collapse your business.......you will lose £10k!! ......you lend me another £5k on condition I DON'T pay off my gambling debts....so I engineer a deal where my cashflow pays BET365.......then borrow even more off you

I'm now your best customer......if I "go under"......so do you

This used to be a point of discussion at every single meeting at Home Brewery/S&N/Heineken......who is "going under".....and then weigh up our debts v secured loans v potential profits.....Tim Martin at Wetherspoons, Derek Mapp at Tom Cobleigh........we even went into the MLSB to collect cash out of the till after the Notts faithful had left.....Scardino was when we sat around and said....no more

Italy isn't basically bankrupt. Leaving aside the fact that if it decided to sell a fraction of its artistic patrimony it could buy Berlin and everything in it, it has a high debt to GDP ratio but so do most other developed economies, Japan in particular, which don't have large quantities of natural resources. It's also important to look at who owns the debt.

So bearing that in mind, what I actually said was that Italy's low growth in the late 90s early 00s was because of Berlusconi.

What I really want you to be specific about is how you define a bail out. Vlad (gawd bless'im) and Tricky previous to that, both implied that Italy received a bail out in the same way that Portugal, Ireland and Greece did. That is not true. You then got involved and said that because Italian bonds were bought by the ECB (which lest we forget is Italy's central bank, in the same way the BoE is for us ) under a QE expansion of the money base, that Italy had effectively received a bail out by another name. Is that still your position?

[drillerpie]

Also, I have to say that your explanation of what has happened is misleading, probably deliberately.

Firstly because you make it sound like Italy is the only recipient of QE, when in fact it's been rolled out across the Eurozone to stimulate the economy and reduce the cost of borrowing. The ECB has bought considerable amounts of French and German bonds, does that mean they have been bailed out too?

Secondly you make it sound like when the ECB bought Italian bonds it was like a grandmother giving a child some money for Christmas, telling it what it could and couldn't spend it on. Again this is not true. The bonds were bought as part of a Eurozone wide stimulus program, and separately the EU's banking regulators set up regulations which stipulate that governments shouldn't give state aid to banks.

One thing you are right about is why Italy was allowed to break those regulations (too big to fail) but that's completely irrelevant to the point we're discussing.

[tarquinbeech]

Italy isn't basically bankrupt. Leaving aside the fact that if it decided to sell a fraction of its artistic patrimony it could buy Berlin and everything in it, it has a high debt to GDP ratio but so do most other developed economies, Japan in particular, which don't have large quantities of natural resources. It's also important to look at who owns the debt.

So bearing that in mind, what I actually said was that Italy's low growth in the late 90s early 00s was because of Berlusconi.

What I really want you to be specific about is how you define a bail out. Vlad (gawd bless'im) and Tricky previous to that, both implied that Italy received a bail out in the same way that Portugal, Ireland and Greece did. That is not true. You then got involved and said that because Italian bonds were bought by the ECB (which lest we forget is Italy's central bank, in the same way the BoE is for us ) under a QE expansion of the money base, that Italy had effectively received a bail out by another name. Is that still your position?

Italy is a financial basket-case, and it's banks hold circa 25% of total NPLs (non-performing loans) in Europe.

The ECB are pumping billions of Euros out as QE/Stimulus package/Cheap loans....I honestly don't care what you call it....it's worthless FIAT currency.

Italy is by far the biggest recipient of this fake money...."too big to fail"

Italy flouts the Euro rules on bank bail-outs, then borrows even more more money from the ECB.....and gets away with it

Why - because the EU were worried about a far-Right backlash at the ballot box......Brexit, Le Pen gaining seats for the first time, AFD gained seats for the first time.....and now the Austria far-right coming in 2nd tonight (it would have been in first place if the centre-right party hadn't agreed to strict new immigration measures)

The EU are hurling cash at Italy, 250 billion out of a total of 760 billion......30% of cheap/free EU/ECB money to a country that blatantly breaks the BRRD Directive.

If you cannot see that this "bribe" made it's way directly to propping up their Banking Sector, then I don't know what else to say.

If a country cannot pay it's debts, has further HUGE debts on it's book, has a debt to GDP ratio of over 100%.....I call that basically a bankrupt country (not sure why you are mentioning other countries....that's irrelevant to my statement).....if it then borrows EVEN MORE MONEY (30% of the total ECB "loans")....then I call that a "bail-out", though I'm aware that they use fancy names now such as "Stimulus Package"

FT Quote:
Please use the sharing tools found via the email icon at the top of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
https://www.ft.com/content/20316f54-...5j=e5#comments

The ECB has pumped €760bn into the eurozone’s financial system through cheap loans to banks, mostly through its “targeted longer-term refinancing operations”, and Italy has been the biggest beneficiary.

As of the end of April, Italy’s banks had received over €250bn of TLTRO funding.

https://www.ft.com/content/20316f54-...5j=e5#comments

[tarquinbeech]

Italy is a financial basket-case, and it's banks hold circa 25% of total NPLs (non-performing loans) in Europe.

The ECB are pumping billions of Euros out as QE/Stimulus package/Cheap loans....I honestly don't care what you call it....it's worthless FIAT currency.

Italy is by far the biggest recipient of this fake money...."too big to fail"

Italy flouts the Euro rules on bank bail-outs, then borrows even more more money from the ECB.....and gets away with it

Why - because the EU were worried about a far-Right backlash at the ballot box......Brexit, Le Pen gaining seats for the first time, AFD gained seats for the first time.....and now the Austria far-right coming in 2nd tonight (it would have been in first place if the centre-right party hadn't agreed to strict new immigration measures)

The EU are hurling cash at Italy, 250 billion out of a total of 760 billion......30% of cheap/free EU/ECB money to a country that blatantly breaks the BRRD Directive.

If you cannot see that this "bribe" made it's way directly to propping up their Banking Sector, then I don't know what else to say.

If a country cannot pay it's debts, has further HUGE debts on it's book, has a debt to GDP ratio of over 100%.....I call that basically a bankrupt country (not sure why you are mentioning other countries....that's irrelevant to my statement).....if it then borrows EVEN MORE MONEY (30% of the total ECB "loans")....then I call that a "bail-out", though I'm aware that they use fancy names now such as "Stimulus Package"

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https://www.ft.com/content/20316f54-...5j=e5#comments

The ECB has pumped €760bn into the eurozone’s financial system through cheap loans to banks, mostly through its “targeted longer-term refinancing operations”, and Italy has been the biggest beneficiary.

As of the end of April, Italy’s banks had received over €250bn of TLTRO funding.

https://www.ft.com/content/20316f54-...5j=e5#comments

FT Quote:

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https://www.ft.com/content/d0700530-...a590a?mhq5j=e5

The remarks by the president of the European Central Bank, at his monthly press conference, helped alleviate concerns about Italian lenders, which have been weighed down by a heavy burden of bad debt and non-performing loans and whose shares have been depressed after the British referendum stoked fears about EU cohesion.

But Mr Draghi also argued that it was too early for the ECB to give its full response to the Brexit vote.

European bank stocks, led by Italian lenders, rallied after he described a state backstop as a “very useful” way to help banks rid their books of non-performing loans — a problem the ECB president said was making his central bank’s policies less effective.

https://www.ft.com/content/d0700530-...a590a?mhq5j=e5

[drillerpie]

Italy is a financial basket-case, and it's banks hold circa 25% of total NPLs (non-performing loans) in Europe.

The ECB are pumping billions of Euros out as QE/Stimulus package/Cheap loans....I honestly don't care what you call it....it's worthless FIAT currency.

Italy is by far the biggest recipient of this fake money...."too big to fail"

Italy flouts the Euro rules on bank bail-outs, then borrows even more more money from the ECB.....and gets away with it

Why - because the EU were worried about a far-Right backlash at the ballot box......Brexit, Le Pen gaining seats for the first time, AFD gained seats for the first time.....and now the Austria far-right coming in 2nd tonight (it would have been in first place if the centre-right party hadn't agreed to strict new immigration measures)

The EU are hurling cash at Italy, 250 billion out of a total of 760 billion......30% of cheap/free EU/ECB money to a country that blatantly breaks the BRRD Directive.

If you cannot see that this "bribe" made it's way directly to propping up their Banking Sector, then I don't know what else to say.

If a country cannot pay it's debts, has further HUGE debts on it's book, has a debt to GDP ratio of over 100%.....I call that basically a bankrupt country (not sure why you are mentioning other countries....that's irrelevant to my statement).....if it then borrows EVEN MORE MONEY (30% of the total ECB "loans")....then I call that a "bail-out", though I'm aware that they use fancy names now such as "Stimulus Package"

FT Quote:
Please use the sharing tools found via the email icon at the top of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
https://www.ft.com/content/20316f54-...5j=e5#comments

The ECB has pumped €760bn into the eurozone’s financial system through cheap loans to banks, mostly through its “targeted longer-term refinancing operations”, and Italy has been the biggest beneficiary.

As of the end of April, Italy’s banks had received over €250bn of TLTRO funding.

https://www.ft.com/content/20316f54-...5j=e5#comments

Are we talking about Italy or Italian banks?

You don't care what I call it because you don't want a serious conversation about it. If you say QE is a bail out, which you seem to be saying, will you agree that the UK and the USA have also been bailed out massively?

You keep avoiding my questions Tarkers. The ECB has also bought billions upon billions of euros of German bonds. If the ECB buying a country's bonds under a QE program is the same as a bail out, does that mean Germany has received a bail out?

On what basis do you say that Italy cannot pay its debts? It finances them, like every other country through the bond market. Before QE the interest rate was higher, obviously, but when has Italy not paid its debts? What do you think would happen to the USA if Asian countries stopped buying US debt and the US had to pay out on all the bonds without refinancing?

The far right party in Austria will almost certainly be third after postal votes. A good result for them though not particularly relevant here.

[tarquinbeech]

Are we talking about Italy or Italian banks?

You don't care what I call it because you don't want a serious conversation about it. If you say QE is a bail out, which you seem to be saying, will you agree that the UK and the USA have also been bailed out massively?

You keep avoiding my questions Tarkers. The ECB has also bought billions upon billions of euros of German bonds. If the ECB buying a country's bonds under a QE program is the same as a bail out, does that mean Germany has received a bail out?

On what basis do you say that Italy cannot pay its debts? It finances them, like every other country through the bond market. Before QE the interest rate was higher, obviously, but when has Italy not paid its debts? What do you think would happen to the USA if Asian countries stopped buying US debt and the US had to pay out on all the bonds without refinancing?

The far right party in Austria will almost certainly be third after postal votes. A good result for them though not particularly relevant here.

Italian Government debt to GDP ratio has risen from 99.8% to 132.6% in 10 years

https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/g...nt-debt-to-gdp

The UK is currently on 89.3% (better than Italy's 10 years ago!!)......the USA IS 106.1% and Germany is 68.3%..France 96% and Spain 99.4%...the EU average is 89.2% and FALLING (89.5% 5 years ago).....Italy is clearly the worst of the larger EU economies and worse than the USA (you mentioned them).....BUT they are getting 30% of the freebie monies/QE/Cheap loans.

I don't understand why you are asking me EXACTLY which part of this EU money went to pay off the banks, ILLEGALLY????

If I have an income from 3 or 4 sources, and they go into my household......how can I tell you which part of my income goes towards purchasing my iFollow subscription.....it doesn't matter....BUT if I then get an overdraft, AND CONTINUE TO INCREASE MY OVERDRAFT FOR 10 STRAIGHT YEARS then you can be damn sure that I am insolvent, and the bank loan is effectively paying for iFollow.

You are saying that they are not bankrupt because they are paying their bills......NO, they are paying the interest on their increasing loans, but continue to borrow more....now the rest of the EU are concerned that even a small upward tweak of interest rates will collapse Italy and collapse the whole pack of cards...they are "too big to fail" and owe too much EU debt

......Edit - The reason that I mentioned Austria's lurch to the right, AFD in Germany etc....is because it was mentioned in a few of the dozen or so articles that I read last night.....Grillo and 5-Star was mentioned as being the second underlying reason for the EU to allow Italy to bail-out it's banks....they didn't want a lurch to the right in Italy if those banks collapsed

[drillerpie]

Italian Government debt to GDP ratio has risen from 99.8% to 132.6% in 10 years

https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/g...nt-debt-to-gdp

The UK is currently on 89.3% (better than Italy's 10 years ago!!)......the USA IS 106.1% and Germany is 68.3%..France 96% and Spain 99.4%...the EU average is 89.2% and FALLING (89.5% 5 years ago).....Italy is clearly the worst of the larger EU economies and worse than the USA (you mentioned them).....BUT they are getting 30% of the freebie monies/QE/Cheap loans.

I don't understand why you are asking me EXACTLY which part of this EU money went to pay off the banks, ILLEGALLY????

If I have an income from 3 or 4 sources, and they go into my household......how can I tell you which part of my income goes towards purchasing my iFollow subscription.....it doesn't matter....BUT if I then get an overdraft, AND CONTINUE TO INCREASE MY OVERDRAFT FOR 10 STRAIGHT YEARS then you can be damn sure that I am insolvent, and the bank loan is effectively paying for iFollow.

You are saying that they are not bankrupt because they are paying their bills......NO, they are paying the interest on their increasing loans, but continue to borrow more....now the rest of the EU are concerned that even a small upward tweak of interest rates will collapse Italy and collapse the whole pack of cards...they are "too big to fail" and owe too much EU debt

......Edit - The reason that I mentioned Austria's lurch to the right, AFD in Germany etc....is because it was mentioned in a few of the dozen or so articles that I read last night.....Grillo and 5-Star was mentioned as being the second underlying reason for the EU to allow Italy to bail-out it's banks....they didn't want a lurch to the right in Italy if those banks collapsed

Grillo is populist but not right wing. Salvini is right wing.

Japan has a higher debt to GDP ratio, is Japan bankrupt? As I said before you should look at who owns the debt when considering the situation. Keynes would say that the level of the debt doesn't matter but that is of course debatable.

Anyway, we digress. I don't want you to write a wall of text, quote the FT, give me dumbed down examples about your gambling debts, your overdraft or your ifollow payments.

I want you to explain succinctly and clearly why QE is a bail out in the case of Italy but when it happens in the UK or USA it's not. Actually you can explain why it's a bail out at all, seeing as it will be paid back plus bond yield.

[tarquinbeech]

Grillo is populist but not right wing. Salvini is right wing.

Japan has a higher debt to GDP ratio, is Japan bankrupt? As I said before you should look at who owns the debt when considering the situation. Keynes would say that the level of the debt doesn't matter but that is of course debatable.

Anyway, we digress. I don't want you to write a wall of text, quote the FT, give me dumbed down examples about your gambling debts, your overdraft or your ifollow payments.

I want you to explain succinctly and clearly why QE is a bail out in the case of Italy but when it happens in the UK or USA it's not. Actually you can explain why it's a bail out at all, seeing as it will be paid back plus bond yield.

I think I've wasted enough time trying to explain this to you.....as I've already stated....Italian debt is escalating rapidly, the EU lend them more and more money, they bailed out their banks which went directly against EU rules.

End of.....I won't be posting again on this subject unless you post blatant lies that need refuting

Have a nice day.

[drillerpie]

they bailed out their banks

Perfect. Italy bailed out its own banks. It was painful but we got there in the end. 😊