O/T Theresa

[drillerpie]

Why do you keep trying to include France, UK, USA into the argument?.....you tell me NOT to include a hypothetical situation of a bank loaning a household money, to balance it's books....and tells the household NOT to gamble it on 365.....but you wander from the topic regularly.

I have no idea what France is doing with it's "overshoot" of QE stimulus.....my guess is that Macron will use the money to ease voters fears over his new policies and keep the rioters off the streets.....it's all politics at the end of the day.

The EU, via the ECB decided to pump "free money" into the coffers of EURO-using countries.....60 billion per month

Germany, as the main economic driver of the EU, insisted on rules that the money should be used in proportion to the size of each economy.....ie everyone got a fair slice of the "free" pie.

The ECB is breaking those rules by buying too much Italian debt......THEN.....to compound the rule-breaking, the Italians bailed-out their own banks to avoid high-street investors losing money and voting accordingly.

The whole thing stinks and I'm glad we're getting out

You know very well why I'm asking and that's why you refuse to answer. I'm asking because I want to nail you down to a workable definition of what a bailout is.

This argument started when Vlad said that Italy was one of the countries,along with Portugal, Ireland, Greece etc, that recieved a bail out. I pointed out that it didn't.

You then tried to ride to the rescue of your friend saying that QE was a bailout. I said OK fine so UK and USA have sizeable QE programs too, so have they also been bailed out? You pretended not to see the question / refused to answer / posted a load of articles as chaff.

It now seems you've revised your position again, saying that it's not the ECB buying Italian bonds through QE that makes it a bailout, it's the fact that the ECB bought more bonds than predicted in their guidelines. I said OK but again Italy is not the only country to have received more than in the guidelines, so if your definition is correct, have those other countries been bailed out too?

They are simple questions with clear logic behind them, and your refusal to answer them speaks volumes.

[drillerpie]

Eh? Central banks have been independent for quite some time.

Are you saying the BoE takes orders from Theresa May?

[tarquinbeech]

Eh? Central banks have been independent for quite some time.

Are you saying the BoE takes orders from Theresa May?

OK....the easy one first

The ECB is the banking-management arm of the Euro itself.....correct?

Supposedly independent - correct?

So why does it break it's own banking rules by bailing-out struggling, insolvent countries?

Here is a list of the various "programs" that it has announced that break it's own rules (bail-outs that most normal banks would NEVER have sanctioned)
Wiki:
The ECB has pronounced that the EU and its member states are in the main responsible for solving the fiscal crisis of some member states.[citation needed] Until 2009 there had not been sufficient instruments in place on the eurozone level to prevent or solve a debt crisis in a member state.[citation needed]
Several systems have been put into place since then to fill this gap:

In 2010, two temporary rescue programmes have been started, the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM) and the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF). Together with massive financial support of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), these facilities have provided funds to Greece, Ireland, and Portugal in 2010 and 2011.
In 2012 the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) with a lending capacity of €500 billion, has been established to replace the previous temporary rescue programmes. The ESM is intended as a permanent firewall for the eurozone to safeguard and provide instant access to financial assistance programmes for member states in financial difficulty. Spain and Cyprus have drawn funds from the ESM programme in 2012 and 2013, with a focus on recapitalization (bail-out) of their financial sectors.
In 2013 the European Fiscal Compact became valid as a contract that obliges the EU member states to introduce domestic self-correcting mechanisms on member state level to ensure balanced public budgets and sustainable public debt levels.
In 2014 the Single Supervisory Mechanism (SSM) was introduced. It grants the European Central Bank (EC a supervisory role to monitor the financial stability of banks in the eurozone states (full members) and other EU states. This supervision is intended as a first step to prevent bank bailout needs in EU states that could induce or contribute to a debt crisis in the respective state.

The EU contracts[vague] forbid the financial bailout of other eurozone countries having problems to service their financial obligations.[55] The emergency set-up of the various eurozone rescue funds to help the crisis states to fulfill their obligations was to a certain degree a violation of the non-bailout clause, but it is documented that there were no alternatives that the eurozone states could agree on in this unforeseen debt crisis situation.

The ECB label these as "reforms" to keep the EU bloc together ie if one member-state defaults then the whole pack of cards collapses......it's politics....IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE ECB TO BE INDEPENDENT.

[tarquinbeech]

OK....the easy one first

The ECB is the banking-management arm of the Euro itself.....correct?

Supposedly independent - correct?

So why does it break it's own banking rules by bailing-out struggling, insolvent countries?

Here is a list of the various "programs" that it has announced that break it's own rules (bail-outs that most normal banks would NEVER have sanctioned)
Wiki:
The ECB has pronounced that the EU and its member states are in the main responsible for solving the fiscal crisis of some member states.[citation needed] Until 2009 there had not been sufficient instruments in place on the eurozone level to prevent or solve a debt crisis in a member state.[citation needed]
Several systems have been put into place since then to fill this gap:

In 2010, two temporary rescue programmes have been started, the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM) and the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF). Together with massive financial support of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), these facilities have provided funds to Greece, Ireland, and Portugal in 2010 and 2011.
In 2012 the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) with a lending capacity of €500 billion, has been established to replace the previous temporary rescue programmes. The ESM is intended as a permanent firewall for the eurozone to safeguard and provide instant access to financial assistance programmes for member states in financial difficulty. Spain and Cyprus have drawn funds from the ESM programme in 2012 and 2013, with a focus on recapitalization (bail-out) of their financial sectors.
In 2013 the European Fiscal Compact became valid as a contract that obliges the EU member states to introduce domestic self-correcting mechanisms on member state level to ensure balanced public budgets and sustainable public debt levels.
In 2014 the Single Supervisory Mechanism (SSM) was introduced. It grants the European Central Bank (EC a supervisory role to monitor the financial stability of banks in the eurozone states (full members) and other EU states. This supervision is intended as a first step to prevent bank bailout needs in EU states that could induce or contribute to a debt crisis in the respective state.

The EU contracts[vague] forbid the financial bailout of other eurozone countries having problems to service their financial obligations.[55] The emergency set-up of the various eurozone rescue funds to help the crisis states to fulfill their obligations was to a certain degree a violation of the non-bailout clause, but it is documented that there were no alternatives that the eurozone states could agree on in this unforeseen debt crisis situation.

The ECB label these as "reforms" to keep the EU bloc together ie if one member-state defaults then the whole pack of cards collapses......it's politics....IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE ECB TO BE INDEPENDENT.

So to answer the other question......the ECB needed to pump even more cash into the system.....so they decided to try QE.....a system that had already proved disastrous in Japan....but they didn't learn that message from history.

BUT.....they needed to show it was fair to ALL the other EU countries.....ie a single amount was agreed, monthly....currently 60 billion per month.....TO BE SHARED EQUALLY BETWEEN THE MEMBER COUNTRIES

So, in answer to your question, and I'm pretty sure that I've already answered it before......France and Germany are NOT being bailed-out.....they are receiving their fair share of the FREE FIAT CURRENCY......until recently, when the ECB decided to buy extra Italian bonds to prop up the Italian banking sector which is toxic

[tarquinbeech]

You know very well why I'm asking and that's why you refuse to answer. I'm asking because I want to nail you down to a workable definition of what a bailout is.

This argument started when Vlad said that Italy was one of the countries,along with Portugal, Ireland, Greece etc, that recieved a bail out. I pointed out that it didn't.

You then tried to ride to the rescue of your friend saying that QE was a bailout. I said OK fine so UK and USA have sizeable QE programs too, so have they also been bailed out? You pretended not to see the question / refused to answer / posted a load of articles as chaff.

It now seems you've revised your position again, saying that it's not the ECB buying Italian bonds through QE that makes it a bailout, it's the fact that the ECB bought more bonds than predicted in their guidelines. I said OK but again Italy is not the only country to have received more than in the guidelines, so if your definition is correct, have those other countries been bailed out too?

They are simple questions with clear logic behind them, and your refusal to answer them speaks volumes.

Of course the UK and USA have bailed-out their banks......I thought that was common knowledge

I have answered your question on France?.....Macron is using his "free money" to keep rioters off the streets....I've honestly no idea where his "slice" went......I know the over-bought Italian bonds went to propping up the Italian banks

When have I changed my position?......I said that QE via the ECB was bailing out Italian banks.....I stand by that assertion...."Too Big to Fail"

[drillerpie]

Classic.

Wall of text copied and pasted from Wiki - tick.

Wilfully missing the point - tick.

It's common knowledge that British and US banks were bailed out, yes. You are alternating between bank bail outs and bail outs of countries and it's hard to follow you.

You said QE was in effect a central bank bailing out a country. So I'm talking about the BoE and Fed expanding the money supply post 2008, not the Chancellor deciding to nationalise RBS and then selling it a few years later.

If you now say that the bailout is the overshoot you have changed your position. You have spent the last few days posting figures about the total amount of QE Italy has received, now you're saying it boils down to 1.8 billion in July, when Italy bailed it's banks out in June for 17 billion. You've also just said that when Italy receives an overshoot it's a bailout, but when France receives one it's their fair share.

There's a lot there that doesn't make sense old man. I'm guessing this is proof, if proof were needed, that economics and beer don't mix, although if you repeat WORTHLESS FIAT MONEY often enough people might believe you know what you're talking about.

[tarquinbeech]

Classic.

Wall of text copied and pasted from Wiki - tick.

Wilfully missing the point - tick.

It's common knowledge that British and US banks were bailed out, yes. You are alternating between bank bail outs and bail outs of countries and it's hard to follow you.

You said QE was in effect a central bank bailing out a country. So I'm talking about the BoE and Fed expanding the money supply post 2008, not the Chancellor deciding to nationalise RBS and then selling it a few years later.

If you now say that the bailout is the overshoot you have changed your position. You have spent the last few days posting figures about the total amount of QE Italy has received, now you're saying it boils down to 1.8 billion in July, when Italy bailed it's banks out in June for 17 billion. You've also just said that when Italy receives an overshoot it's a bailout, but when France receives one it's their fair share.

There's a lot there that doesn't make sense old man. I'm guessing this is proof, if proof were needed, that economics and beer don't mix, although if you repeat WORTHLESS FIAT MONEY often enough people might believe you know what you're talking about.

You need to have a lie-down....I've noticed that you often resort to insults when you are losing....it worked with Vlad and you got him banned (that you bragged about on here....it won't work with me, I'm here for the next 10 years)......hopefully everyone else can spot them?

Keep taking the tablets....I'm off to watch the game....toodle pip.....YOUNG BOY!!

[JoePass]

You need to have a lie-down....I've noticed that you often resort to insults when you are losing....it worked with Vlad and you got him banned (that you bragged about on here....it won't work with me, I'm here for the next 10 years)......hopefully everyone else can spot them?

Keep taking the tablets....I'm off to watch the game....toodle pip.....YOUNG BOY!!

Come on you Piessssssss.

[tarquinbeech]

Come on you Piessssssss.

3-1 to Notts.....COYP

[Elite_Pie]

You need to have a lie-down....I've noticed that you often resort to insults when you are losing.

Pot, kettle anyone?

I've noticed that you often resort to insults when you are losing....it worked with Vlad and you got him banned.

Vlad was banned because he went that step too far. It obviously hurts you a lot, but it's the truth.