Take A Knee

[ragnarok]

Doubt even Chris Rock could get away with this in race obsessed 2017:

[krakowdon]

In what way is it a "civil rights issue"? What civil rights do African Americans (which I'll shorten to AA for ease of typing) lack in 2017 that other Americans enjoy?

It seems to suit the prejudices of some to buy in to the narrative racist redneck "Murica F*ck Yeah!" police are disproportionately targeting black people. It's true that AAs are killed by police in disproportiantate numbers but it's also a fact that they commit a disproportionate amount of crime (unless you think official crime statistics are fabricated). The numbers of police killings per year are actually very low in the context of a population of over 300m but, relative to the number of whites killed by police, the numbers of AAs killed by police is broadly consistent with the rate at which AAs commit serious crimes.

This is not to draw any conclusions as to why a segment of the AA population is doing so badly. Of course racism and prejudice exists and needs to be addressed when it is exposed but having spent a bit of time looking into this I don't see any hard evidence that widespread nationwide racism is the main reason why AAs are disproportinately convicted of serious crimes and hence disporoportionately filling the jails. Baltimore which is AA majority has one of the worst crime rates in the country.

A more realistic explanation is that it's primarily a cultural issue in a segment of the AA population as there is little evidence that black people in higher income groups face significant discrimination. In fact, the federal government has adopted targeted welfare and affirmative action programs for decades - maybe that's part of the problem. But I can't claim to be an expert on this subject.

If I were to twist your words, and sincerely I'm not, I would suggest that you are saying that they got it coming to them. I'm sure you're not, but I think what you seem to be saying doesn't compute.

It doesn't work to conflate the two entirely different points. BLM is concerned primarily with the issue of why AA are disproportionally the victims of police violence. Even if it's accepted that AAs commit disproportionately more crime (than whom?) does not mean that individual AAs deserve to be shot, so we are deflected away from the first statement by the second. Crime is invariably committed by the poorest and most disadvantaged in any society, whatever the race. The two points you make both raise, but do not resolve, issues of civil rights and racism, the second point certainly does not explain the first.

Not sure the point you're making about Chris Rock. It's a routine about an uneducated criminal underclass, that could have been titled Us nice normal folks v Neds rather than Black People v N*****. It's like Kevin Bridges talking about the neds he grew up with. It's not racist, it's social commentary.

[InversneckieDob]

there is little evidence that black people in higher income groups face significant discrimination.

The Michael Bennett incident?

I don't profess to be an expert in what goes on Stateside either and I think there's a vast, vast amount of socio-cultural issues that blight that country (their obsession with f u c k i n g guns for a kick off).
Race and racism is only one of these.

But, looking on from a distance, there does seem to be anecdotal evidence at least that Rapey McTrumpface's election triumph has enabled and empowered certain elements.

[ragnarok]

If I were to twist your words, and sincerely I'm not, I would suggest that you are saying that they got it coming to them. I'm sure you're not, but I think what you seem to be saying doesn't compute.

It doesn't work to conflate the two entirely different points. BLM is concerned primarily with the issue of why AA are disproportionally the victims of police violence. Even if it's accepted that AAs commit disproportionately more crime (than whom?) does not mean that individual AAs deserve to be shot, so we are deflected away from the first statement by the second. Crime is invariably committed by the poorest and most disadvantaged in any society, whatever the race. The two points you make both raise, but do not resolve, issues of civil rights and racism, the second point certainly does not explain the first.

Not sure the point you're making about Chris Rock. It's a routine about an uneducated criminal underclass, that could have been titled Us nice normal folks v Neds rather than Black People v N*****. It's like Kevin Bridges talking about the neds he grew up with. It's not racist, it's social commentary.

"They got it coming to them" - The suggestion that what I was saying was even in that ballpark is completely missing the point. As I stated, the number of police killings per year is incredibly low. There may or may not have been nefarious racist intent behind those killings. The question is whether you can draw a broader observation regarding racism in society. I'm not dismissing the severity of individual cases, merely pointing out that collectively they are 'statistically irrelevant'. One racist doesn't make an entire country racist. BLM claim there is structural racism. I'd like more evidence please.

And I completely agree that the reason AAs commit a disproportionate amount of crime (compared with White Americans and other minority groups as a percentage of the population) is likely due to the fact that they are among the most disadvantaged groups and invariably those who are committing crime and filling the prisons are those at the bottom rung of the ladder. Race is mostly (although not completely) incidental. There is a greater correlation between crime and socio-economic status than there is between race and crime. AA Harvard graduates are clearly not being targeted in the same way as AAs born and raised in 'the ghetto'. From here there may simply be a difference in opinion that being disadvantaged automatically makes you a relatively victimised group, but that's getting into a far broader political discussion. All I will add is that AAs are actually materially worse off now than they were when they were actively being oppressed after decades of federal programs aimed at improving their situation. Thomas Sowell (an AA conservative intellectual) blames welfare and the breakdown of the family unit for this (the rate of single motherhood among deprived AAs is incredibly high) but again I haven't looked at this in enough detail to claim to be an authority

Race is not completely incidental because the further you move down the socio-economic scale the more individuals tend to identify with their racial, ethnic or cultural group. Poor AAs are likely to live among other poor AAs, the same as poor whites. So poor AAs are part of a collective culture characterised by ethnicity in a way that a middle class AA isn't.

The Chris Rock sketch is interesting simply because it's the sort of comedy I grew up with and it's the kind of comedy that you're unlikely to hear from the millennial generation.

[Pacman1903]

So why would a boy born in Milwaukee who's lived in America his whole life "try" Angola...or any African country?

I was using it as an example of how he could be a lot worse of than he is and could live in far worse situations. He is now turning the fact he canna get a game into a race issue when its a trouble maker issue. Hes making it out that hes hard done by and he will now not get paid etc etc. He will be minted. Franchises wont want him pulling his media grabbing stunts in their colours and when one did come his way his bird called the owner a "slave owner"

I agree that "Black Lives Matter" but so does every other race worldwide. African Americans could be a hell of a lot worse off than they are. Black Lives matter? Come to Angola and see where over 50% of the population don't matter. Americas problems have nothing on other countries around the globe

[InversneckieDob]

But Pac, taking that argument to its conclusion there's nae point complaining, campaigning for, working for, contributing to.....anything.

Because there's always someone worse off.

That comes to a "two wrongs make a right" type argument.

I dinna recall (though stand to be corrected) Kap saying hm nae getting a gig was a race issue, but it is patently because of his protest .

Each team has a minimum of two QBs, that's 64 in total.

Kap was one pass (9ers fans will tell you, one non call on a pass interference) away from winning the Superbowl couple years back.

I've never liked read option QBs, but they were a' the rage in them times, but the point is that there's nae 64 better QBs than him.

By taking this stance, he's cost himself a massive, massive amount of money cos owners and GMs winna touch him now.
Now, he's still a very wealthy man, so he doesnae really need sympathy, but he's done what he's done for a cause he believes is right.

The States is a moral and socio-political basket case on a vast, vast number of levels.
And just because various other countries re bigger such basket cases surely doesnae mean you dinna campaign on domestic issues there?

I'm a local Trade Union rep, so if somebody comes to me with a genuine grievance (genuine in the sense that it works contrary to local practice, regulation etc.) do I say "ah, but if you lived in North Korea/Rwanda/a.n. other country you'd be knackered, so I'm nae helping you"?

I dinna think so.

[Aldo1983]

Pledging allegiance and being forced to sing the national anthem are all very fascistesque in my opinion. If they want to kneel then surely that's their right? The idea that it's disrespectful to veterans, etc is ridiculous and suits the Trump narrative that he seized on at a rally in Alabama. It's a bit like Armed Forces day at Ibrox, does that make them more respectful than your ordinary Aberdeen fan? This all comes from a man that had a dig at John McCain for being captured during the Vietnam war.

He picks little battles here and there to drum up support and deflect from the big issues going on that are clearly way too complex for him to deal with. This little battle might be one that he wishes he didn't pick though. I personally think he's bitten off more than he can chew here.

Incidentally he tweeted this yesterday...

"Great solidarity for our National Anthem and for our Country. Standing with locked arms is good, kneeling is not acceptable. Bad ratings!"

Hmmmmm

[InversneckieDob]

Pledging allegiance and being forced to sing the national anthem are all very fascistesque in my opinion. If they want to kneel then surely that's their right? The idea that it's disrespectful to veterans, etc is ridiculous and suits the Trump narrative that he seized on at a rally in Alabama. It's a bit like Armed Forces day at Ibrox, does that make them more respectful than your ordinary Aberdeen fan? This all comes from a man that had a dig at John McCain for being captured during the Vietnam war.

He picks little battles here and there to drum up support and deflect from the big issues going on that are clearly way too complex for him to deal with. This little battle might be one that he wishes he didn't pick though. I personally think he's bitten off more than he can chew here.

Incidentally he tweeted this yesterday...

"Great solidarity for our National Anthem and for our Country. Standing with locked arms is good, kneeling is not acceptable. Bad ratings!"

Hmmmmm

The man is a moron, no question.
But nothing he says or does seems to lead to a collapse in his core support.

[Aldo1983]

The man is a moron, no question.
But nothing he says or does seems to lead to a collapse in his core support.

So far but it can only last so long. By picking a fight with their sport he may well slowly chip away at it.

[ragnarok]

Trump is a symptom of an underlying malaise. Too many in the political and media establishment think that if they remove Trump then the problem will just go away. It doesn't help their cause that whenever Trumps makes an ass of himself, the segments of the media that are most critical of him double down on their own idiotic narrative.

As for pledging allegiance to the flag etc. one of the reasons why Americans seem excessively patriotic is that the USA is not a natural nation. It's a combination of many ethnic groups and cultures who otherwise wouldn't hold much allegiance to each other. The USA is more of a concept than a cultural reality but for a country that size it needs some kind of shared identity to hold it together. I think that this is in the process of unravelling, quite possibly along racial lines.