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[Me For Crewe]

Okay I will start it off and I am looking for input as I was not able to make it yesterday. Listened to the radio commentary and for reasonable periods of the game we sounded fine and in control. What stuck out was towards the end of the game it became apparent that we had some tired legs out there. Cooper was mentioned as " he has given his all and can't run anymore. The next thing is they won a corner right at the end involving Cooper and hey presto, a winner for them. If this is the case inexcusable that we did not even use one sub. All these goals going in, what is Stubbs doing here if not played? Was thinking of going to Morecambe, someone give me a reason to go. I am getting very worried. If Luton come next week and start on the front foot it could be embarrasing.

[alexmick]

One thing is certain to my mind and that involves this outdated academy of ours. Too much money appears to be wasted on this now, as we continue to have youngsters poached by PL clubs, before they even get the chance to progress through our ranks. That means that those coming through are no longer of the same quality that we once had. They are not even good enough to mix it in this L2 football that we are stuck with. I am not saying scrap it altogether, but scale it down and divert that money to where it is needed most. That being the first team. If you don't keep up with the times and adapt to a changing world, then you become extinct. The blame lies with the board, first and foremost.

[Me For Crewe]

One thing is certain to my mind and that involves this outdated academy of ours. Too much money appears to be wasted on this now, as we continue to have youngsters poached by PL clubs, before they even get the chance to progress through our ranks. That means that those coming through are no longer of the same quality that we once had. They are not even good enough to mix it in this L2 football that we are stuck with. I am not saying scrap it altogether, but scale it down and divert that money to where it is needed most. That being the first team. If you don't keep up with the times and adapt to a changing world, then you become extinct. The blame lies with the board, first and foremost.

This now seems to be the general concensus now and without knowing all the ins and outs I agree with all of the above. Artell says he strongly believes in the academy in its present form, is that what he truly believes or is he just towing the line? If it is the latter then he truly is not his own man which he leads us all to believe.

[MikeSB]

One thing is certain to my mind and that involves this outdated academy of ours. Too much money appears to be wasted on this now, as we continue to have youngsters poached by PL clubs, before they even get the chance to progress through our ranks. That means that those coming through are no longer of the same quality that we once had. They are not even good enough to mix it in this L2 football that we are stuck with. I am not saying scrap it altogether, but scale it down and divert that money to where it is needed most. That being the first team. If you don't keep up with the times and adapt to a changing world, then you become extinct. The blame lies with the board, first and foremost.

I hate to say I told you so! But the writing has been on the wall for the last few years and we have wasted many millions of pounds on a wing and a prayer...Dario was successful with a couple of helpers and signing some cast offs and then some bright spark decided we needed to start coaching young children as though we were Barcelona. 10 years coaching costs circa ten million pounds and that is far too risky for a club our size.

I was listening to RS yesterday and they said that PV were playing three lads that had come through their academy which I thought they had done away with but two things came to my mind. They must still have an academy but one that is manageable and less cost and secondly those lads didn't go to a Cat 1 academy like Stoke has or a Cat2 academy like we have and so it would seem that local lads will go and play for their local team which is what I have been saying a long time. So we go back to something similar and save 600 grand per year immediately and without compromising that situation and anyway as you say Mick, the really outstanding ones will be poached by the bigger clubs.

DA is just towing the party line and the problem as always is putting young lads against very strong pro's. But its the Board decision and their money. That must surely be coming to an end and if we get relegated, its a shoe in.

The board have not moved on and shows that old men who are set in their ways are not always the best way forward when things have moved on.. and they can't.

[itwasin]

Can not understand why some supporters never saw this coming,it was a No Brainer for the past 5 years. The club has learned nothing in that time 5 years of the Season being over well before Christmas, and still its a Corner Goal -- Corner Goal--Corner Goal --44th min Goal--89 min Goal. Nothing learned!! and all those Coaches!! Stage Coaches!

[ruocul]

First of all let me say I do not disagree with any of you wanting the Academy downgraded. Mike it is not 600k, it is 750k.

But I honestly believe that the coaching system at the academy is more than poor. It appears there is too much emphasis on the technical abilities, plus constantly reminding the lads the important thing is playing the game fairly. Winning the game is not important. No argument with that until the lads reach 15, but then they should face the hard reality that the professional game is hard physical and mean at times. There should be far better preparation from that age. I believe this is the major problem with the academy, and why most of our graduates are not capable of coping with professional football. In the last 2 years how many of our academy graduates have been able to cope with the physical aspect of league2 football? One, Perry NG.

I think their is very little prospect of the Academy being downgraded if we retain league status. The board are not going to change. They still have the mindset that the Academy is more important than the first team. Then you have what I believe is the majority of the supporters who want "our boys" to be in the team irrespective if they are good enough or strong enough. They are going to support the Board no matter what when it comes to the Academy.

What I find most annoying about them is they cannot stand the established pros who sign for us. They constantly find fault with them because they are taking a place in the team that could be filled by "one of our boys". They cannot understand that if the balance was right it is these seasoned pros that would bring on "our boys" if they were good enough. Sadly they are not.

[MikeSB]

First of all let me say I do not disagree with any of you wanting the Academy downgraded. Mike it is not 600k, it is 750k.

But I honestly believe that the coaching system at the academy is more than poor. It appears there is too much emphasis on the technical abilities, plus constantly reminding the lads the important thing is playing the game fairly. Winning the game is not important. No argument with that until the lads reach 15, but then they should face the hard reality that the professional game is hard physical and mean at times. There should be far better preparation from that age. I believe this is the major problem with the academy, and why most of our graduates are not capable of coping with professional football. In the last 2 years how many of our academy graduates have been able to cope with the physical aspect of league2 football? One, Perry NG.

I think their is very little prospect of the Academy being downgraded if we retain league status. The board are not going to change. They still have the mindset that the Academy is more important than the first team. Then you have what I believe is the majority of the supporters who want "our boys" to be in the team irrespective if they are good enough or strong enough. They are going to support the Board no matter what when it comes to the Academy.

What I find most annoying about them is they cannot stand the established pros who sign for us. They constantly find fault with them because they are taking a place in the team that could be filled by "one of our boys". They cannot understand that if the balance was right it is these seasoned pros that would bring on "our boys" if they were good enough. Sadly they are not.

Hi Luckour, Yes I know its 750K but I stated 600K to allow 150K go be spent on a mini academy probably like most clubs have and last time I looked even the Cat3 EPPP academy costs were substantially lower and just need to add rider for all those including Dario that the higher the category,the better the coaching which they believed would produce better quality players? If that was true, where are they been over the last 5 years? One decent coach is all that is needed and so get rid of most of the academy staff and do what Dario did at first. Its not actually that difficult but they will have to give them notice soon or be faced with a huge compensation bill. ie its no good leaving it to next season as we may be down by then! I hope not but that is what strategic planning is all about. Looking at other options and not sure the board has done that and had they all been Directors in business they would have been sacked by now!

The Directors thought L2 would be easier for academy graduates and shows how out of touch they are..

[whosbrianwilson]

At the moment the problems are not to do with the academy. It's about having a back 4 with no pace, it's about not making subs when players are out on their feet, it's about not signing any midfielders, it's about a manager who blames everyone else but himself. I could go on.

[MikeSB]

At the moment the problems are not to do with the academy. It's about having a back 4 with no pace, it's about not making subs when players are out on their feet, it's about not signing any midfielders, it's about a manager who blames everyone else but himself. I could go on.

The midfield are the engine room of the team and imo its difficult for academy graduates to fill that role because they need strength and energy in spades and can really make a difference to a team and why each season that should have been a priority and money set aside for them..I can't comment on their fitness levels other than we thought SD had sorted that out which was a big criticism when he took over from Dario who was never keen on that aspect...Remember the iceman getting them running up Mow Cop with a weight on their backs? Maybe that was just fairy tales I don't know but young men should last well over 90 mins once or twice a week...

I keep hearing DA argues with the fourth official most of the game and wonder if the Chairman can tell him to stop that?

L2 was always going to be tough and as we see teams like Tranmere are finding it just as tough and can't see many young lads being in those sorts of leagues but I may be wrong..

I would just add that our better teams had pacy wingers that could take the pressure off the defence and make and score goals and we don't see to have had that sort of player for a few years like Rodney Jack, Jones and Varney, none who came through the academy...

Its just my opinion that we started to rely too much on a so called academy production line a few years back and we have seen the consequences when really very ordinary teams have no problems beating us...and you are right that technical ability which is all the academy can teach does not win matches and never has...Pele all those years ago which few remember now had that in spades but when he was kicked to death in matches because they knew how to win and why these teams know exactly our strengths and indeed our weaknesses... Not just that where Dario had a point is that when young players really push themselves they can easily get injured whereas a 30 year old can take the knocks mostly...

[ALEXKNOWALL]

The midfield are the engine room of the team and imo its difficult for academy graduates to fill that role because they need strength and energy in spades and can really make a difference to a team and why each season that should have been a priority and money set aside for them..I can't comment on their fitness levels other than we thought SD had sorted that out which was a big criticism when he took over from Dario who was never keen on that aspect...Remember the iceman getting them running up Mow Cop with a weight on their backs? Maybe that was just fairy tales I don't know but young men should last well over 90 mins once or twice a week...

I keep hearing DA argues with the fourth official most of the game and wonder if the Chairman can tell him to stop that?

L2 was always going to be tough and as we see teams like Tranmere are finding it just as tough and can't see many young lads being in those sorts of leagues but I may be wrong..

I would just add that our better teams had pacy wingers that could take the pressure off the defence and make and score goals and we don't see to have had that sort of player for a few years like Rodney Jack, Jones and Varney, none who came through the academy...

Its just my opinion that we started to rely too much on a so called academy production line a few years back and we have seen the consequences when really very ordinary teams have no problems beating us...and you are right that technical ability which is all the academy can teach does not win matches and never has...Pele all those years ago which few remember now had that in spades but when he was kicked to death in matches because they knew how to win and why these teams know exactly our strengths and indeed our weaknesses... Not just that where Dario had a point is that when young players really push themselves they can easily get injured whereas a 30 year old can take the knocks mostly...

Our problem is not the Academy! That has produced Cooper, Lowery, Jones, Ray, Ainley, Garratt, Pickering, Ng etc etc - some are potentially better than others. There are plenty of other ex academy lads playing in league teams better than us - Turton, Mellor, Ajay, Dunkley,

But if Bowery, Raynes, Nolan, Dagnall, Porter and Bakayogo choose to have an off day or don't listen (???) then we are exposed

We have an average and small squad in a poor league with injuries hitting it hard

....and a Manager who is being found out! Some decisions are bizarre - why no subs Saturday? Why did we sign Stubbs? Why does a poor team field 3 centre forwards away from home? Why spend most of your time berating the 4th official? Why is Bakayogo always the fall guy?