A Second Brexit Referendum..?

[sinkov]

We had a vote in Parliament to bomb Syria. Millions of us said "No!" but they bombed the poor sods anyway!

Parliament voted YES, I'm sure there were millions more in Syria and Iraq who were quite pleased that they did. Those being tortured, raped, beheaded, massacred and terrorised by the maniacs in the ISIS death cult.

ISIS.....poor sods ? Sometimes BT, only sometimes, I do question your judgement.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Parliament voted YES, I'm sure there were millions more in Syria and Iraq who were quite pleased that they did. Those being tortured, raped, beheaded, massacred and terrorised by the maniacs in the ISIS death cult.

ISIS.....poor sods ? Sometimes BT, only sometimes, I do question your judgement.

Indiscriminate bombing in Aleppo and now Ghouta is claiming the lives of thousands of innocent civilians. Given that Assad is another of your right wing lunatics, I suppose it's OK for you to turn a blind eye sinkov?

[1959_60]

Afternoon Sinkov, afternoon all.
Yes, we had another great day in the Lakes yesterday. We climbed Fleetwith Pike which had spectacular views of Buttermere, the Honister Pass and the bigger hills in the distance. It was blowing a bitingly cold wind up there but we were prepared.
Afterwards we decanted to the Scafell Hotel which had a roaring log fire and excellent ales. My day was spoiled by the news from Selhurst Park but nothing in this world is perfect.

Regarding my "red lines" on the Brexit deal...

Everyone is unique and everyone would have their own red lines. To be ridiculous, if the deal meant that we would all be £1 million better off then no one would vote against it.
If the deal meant that our first borns were forced to have a limb amputated then no one would vote for it. Hopefully, the deal will be somewhere in between these extremes! And every one would be able to make their own minds up.

My red line would be that I would not vote for a deal that left our country, and my family, worse off than we are at the moment. Why would any one vote for a deal like that? Although, we have all heard some people tell us that they WOULD accept such a deal, simply because they stubbornly want to leave the EU, no matter what the consequences. I cannot fathom that kind of argument...but this is a democracy and we have to accept their wishes too.
We do not know what the final deal will look like but, once the details are known, if we put it to a democratic vote of the people then how can anyone object?

[sinkov]

Indiscriminate bombing in Aleppo and now Ghouta is claiming the lives of thousands of innocent civilians. Given that Assad is another of your right wing lunatics, I suppose it's OK for you to turn a blind eye sinkov?

You've been listening to The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights again haven't you BT, that chap in his bungalow in Coventry, or is it Solihull ?

[sinkov]

Afternoon Sinkov, afternoon all.
Yes, we had another great day in the Lakes yesterday. We climbed Fleetwith Pike which had spectacular views of Buttermere, the Honister Pass and the bigger hills in the distance. It was blowing a bitingly cold wind up there but we were prepared.
Afterwards we decanted to the Scafell Hotel which had a roaring log fire and excellent ales. My day was spoiled by the news from Selhurst Park but nothing in this world is perfect.

Regarding my "red lines" on the Brexit deal...

Everyone is unique and everyone would have their own red lines. To be ridiculous, if the deal meant that we would all be £1 million better off then no one would vote against it.
If the deal meant that our first borns were forced to have a limb amputated then no one would vote for it. Hopefully, the deal will be somewhere in between these extremes! And every one would be able to make their own minds up.

My red line would be that I would not vote for a deal that left our country, and my family, worse off than we are at the moment. Why would any one vote for a deal like that? Although, we have all heard some people tell us that they WOULD accept such a deal, simply because they stubbornly want to leave the EU, no matter what the consequences. I cannot fathom that kind of argument...but this is a democracy and we have to accept their wishes too.
We do not know what the final deal will look like but, once the details are known, if we put it to a democratic vote of the people then how can anyone object?

So you don't have any red lines 59/60, you don't know what you want, or what you don't want, just a vague feeling that you don't want a deal that would leave us worse off, well nor does anyone. So as you're so woolly about it, not much point asking you is there, to be fair.

But could I press you further, you've ignored my question about a NO vote on the deal. You said you'd be happy with that, but as that must lead to us leaving without a deal, I'm really at a loss to understand your position on this, it seems contradictory.

[1959_60]

So you don't have any red lines 59/60, you don't know what you want, or what you don't want, just a vague feeling that you don't want a deal that would leave us worse off, well nor does anyone. So as you're so woolly about it, not much point asking you is there, to be fair.

But could I press you further, you've ignored my question about a NO vote on the deal. You said you'd be happy with that, but as that must lead to us leaving without a deal, I'm really at a loss to understand your position on this, it seems contradictory.

Aha! So if the final deal leaves us worse off than we are now then you admit that no one would be happy. Welcome to my world.
And, just for argument, let's assume that the final deal WOULD leave us worse off, because I think that will be inevitable. You would STILL be happy for Theresa May to sign it off, and the people should have no say?

And you still seem to think that there are only two possible outcomes. Either we accept the deal or we leave without one.
In a democracy we should be given as much choice as possible, and you still seem to think that the "third option" is not viable. This is to revoke article 50 and to tell the EU that we have changed our mind and we wish to remain. I think this is becoming more and more possible as events are being played out. As the Big Bloke in Europe said, he hopes we do change our mind. "You mat think that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one".

And, as David Davies said, "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy”

You seem to think that democracy ended in June 2016.

[Altobelli]

"A Second Brexit Referendum"..?

With May and the rest of the clowns saying there isn't going to be one, I wouldn't put anything past this toothless cobbled together bunch of P!ss poor so called top rank officials, They are a disgrace to our Country and we look abysmal for all the world to laugh at.

In alf's words, May and her inadequate Government should be shot.

[sinkov]

Aha! So if the final deal leaves us worse off than we are now then you admit that no one would be happy. Welcome to my world.
And, just for argument, let's assume that the final deal WOULD leave us worse off, because I think that will be inevitable. You would STILL be happy for Theresa May to sign it off, and the people should have no say?

And you still seem to think that there are only two possible outcomes. Either we accept the deal or we leave without one.
In a democracy we should be given as much choice as possible, and you still seem to think that the "third option" is not viable. This is to revoke article 50 and to tell the EU that we have changed our mind and we wish to remain. I think this is becoming more and more possible as events are being played out. As the Big Bloke in Europe said, he hopes we do change our mind. "You mat think that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one".

And, as David Davies said, "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy”

You seem to think that democracy ended in June 2016.

No one knows whether we'll be be better off or not 59/60, certainly not the so-called experts, who confidently predicted disaster if we didn't join the Eurozone, they were so, so WRONG. Nor the experts behind Project Fear, confidently predicting numerous disasters if we voted to leave the EU, they also were so, so WRONG. If you want to believe the ongoing prophecies of doom about our future in the real world outside of the EU, then be my guest, you do seem to have a penchant for backing losers.

For what it's worth imo in the short term, we may well be worse off, the EU will certainly be doing everything in it's power to ensure we are, and they appear to care not that they will also damage their own economies even more, so I wouldn't be confident about the possibility that they will see sense and act like rational trading partners would, seeking a deal mutually benefitting both sides. In the longer term, I have no doubt we'll be better off, which is why I voted to leave, the EU is swimming against the tide of history, it will go the same way as the USSR and Yugoslavia, it's simply a matter of when, not if.

On the more specific points which I've set out in post 40, you still refuse to address them, and prefer to exist in some sort of LibDem fantasy land, wibbling on about choice, still dreaming about revoking A50, still unable to explain how it can be done. Your traitorous chums had better discover the means pretty quickly, as M Barnier says, the clock is ticking.

[sinkov]

Here's something which I can guarantee will never see the light of day in the pages of the Grauniad or Independent, nor will it ever make a BBC news bulletin, not even tucked away in the last 30 seconds. And don't expect the EU to be commenting on it either, I can guarantee our friends in Europe won't be reading this over their croissants and coffee in the morning. Their media falls into line and gives Barnier an easy ride, they don't have traitors to contend with.


"no deal" outcome from the Brexit negotiations would lead to a £500 billion loss for the European Union, according to a new analysis.

A study by Patrick Minford, a professor of economics at Cardiff University, states that while a failure to reach a deal would lead to "short term nuisance" for both sides, Brussels would face a "substantial economic loss", compared to a net gain for the UK.
Prof Minford, who chairs the Eurosceptic Economists for Free Trade group, concludes: "It could not be more open and shut who least wants a breakdown".
The analysis comes after David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, *complained in a letter to the Prime Minister that Brussels was damaging British interests by talking up the threat to companies if the UK leaves the European Union without a deal.
Prof Minford said: "For the UK a breakdown would be a short term nuisance but a substantial economic gain; for the EU it is both a short term nuisance and a substantial economic loss."
According to the analysis, the largest cost to the EU would be from paying the UK some £433 billion in tariff revenue. It would also lose around £28 billion which the UK would otherwise pay into the budget period to 2020, and a reported £10 billion contribution to longer term liabilities, as part of a financial settlement, Prof Minford concluded.
"Because its customs union with the UK would stop immediately, it would lose two years’ worth of the terms of trade gain its producers make on its balance of trade surplus with the UK- estimated at around £18 billion a year: so two years’ worth of that would be another £36 billion one-off loss," he added.
By contrast, a breakdown in talks would lead to a "one-off gain" of £38 billion on savings in relation to the EU budget, in addition a £180 billion windfall as a result of bringing forward the "long-term gain" of *"free trade, own-regulation and own-border-control" in the absence of the otherwise expected two-year implementation period for a deal.
The UK would also gain the total of £433 billion tariff revenue which Prof Minford calculated would be paid by the EU to the Treasury, he said.
He concluded: "So plus £641 billion for the UK versus minus £507 billion for the EU: it could not be more open and shut who least wants a breakdown. For the UK a breakdown would be a short term nuisance but a substantial economic gain; for the EU it is both a short term nuisance and a substantial economic loss."

[The Bedlington Terrier]

I don't want to sound like my two granddads but fcuk the Frogs, the Eyeties and the Jerries, we can have them for supper all day long!