O/F'ing/T Carillion

[ragingpup]

gm was wrong, in my opinion, but I think your exchange with him demonstrated the limitations of using Left and Right labels. The defining features of Capitalism and Socialism are primarily concerned with the ownership of the means of production. Hitler was big on public spending and regulation, but I think most Labour supporters wouldn't regard him as one of theirs (although some seem to hold anti-Semitic views).

I would agree that the use of such labels can be limited, and even, as in the case of Hitler, consciously abused to manipulate a society. Of course, in the real world, extremes on both sides can involve quite radical strands from the other. However, I would argue that they are simply useful words - 'left' and 'right' that allow us to simply communicate roughly where we stand, as a starting point at least.

[animallittle3]

If there's one thing certain it's that this particular Tory government seems to have the fantastic ability to sleep walk into embarrassing disaster after embarrassing disaster .

Everything the hapless May touches goes spectacularly wrong , she can't even sack members of her cabinet to plug the leaks such is her self inflicated position and weakness .

The dinosaurs are still clinging on for dear life but the meteorite is heading their way and can't be stopped , there's no Bruce Willis here to save the day .

Change is a coming as Sam Cooke famously sang .

[KerrAvon]

The link between Philip Green and The Tory Party , he was an advisor to Cameron seems to be significant .

Profit warnings and a spectacular fall in it's share price clearly didn't send the alarms to go off when awarding billion pound contracts .

All part of the neoliberal club of course , I understand the CEO of Carillion will continue to be paid for the next 10 months , nice work when you can get it , the neoliberal way of course as Carillion workers sign on the dole .

I'm hopeful that the lessons of the financial crisis will be learned here and perhaps we shall see the CEO and his cronies facing a courtroom appearance , I believe it's called fraud and there's many a benefit claimant who regretted their fraudulent use of public money .

We do operate in a one tier society after all , don't we !!!!

The CEO of Carillion will not be paid for the next ten months. A former CEO, Richard Howson left in July 2017 and as part of his severance package was to have been paid until October 2018. With the company going into liquidation, he is now just another creditor and is unlikely to be paid anything.

Most of Carillons current projects will be taken on by other companies (although probably on a fee basis rather than a risk basis) and I would anticipate that the majority of their employees will be transferred over to the new contractors. That’s not to say that they aren’t going to be facing a period of uncertainty.

Howson’s severance package was certainly a generous one, but I don’t know where neo-liberalism comes into it. It’s a modest severance package compared to the one secured by the well known neo-liberal, Arthur Scargill, when he left that well known neo-liberal organisation, the NUM. The NUM paid the rent on Scargill’s second home in London for ten years after he stepped down. When they stopped, he exercised his right to buy the flat in question. It’s in the Barbican, just down the road from Borough Market, where Len McCluskey lives in his flat that was part paid for with £417 000 given to him by the Unite union. Was that neo-liberalism in action too?

I’d ask you where you think a fraud has been committed at Carillion, but asking someone to repeat what is probably a defamatory statement isn’t a good idea.

Any thoughts on who you think has been stealing pension funds other than Robert Maxwell

[KerrAvon]

If there's one thing certain it's that this particular Tory government seems to have the fantastic ability to sleep walk into embarrassing disaster after embarrassing disaster .

Everything the hapless May touches goes spectacularly wrong , she can't even sack members of her cabinet to plug the leaks such is her self inflicated position and weakness .

The dinosaurs are still clinging on for dear life but the meteorite is heading their way and can't be stopped , there's no Bruce Willis here to save the day .

Change is a coming as Sam Cooke famously sang .

You've been predicting the collapse of the current government ever since the day after they won last year's general election with the date of the said collapse being periodically put back. It's a bit like watching one of those religious cults that predicts the end of the world and then has to have a re-think when it doesn't happen.

I think 2022 remains the best you can hope for and I have doubts about whether Labour will be successful then -The Great Leader will be 73 and the electorate will either be told or will work out that would mean that he would be 78 by the end of a full term unless he stood down, in which case the possibility of Diane Abbott putting her hat in the ring would loom large. In addition, I think Labour are in danger of being rumbled over Europe with their 'working class' support working out that their constant references to remaining in the Single Market meaning that they are flirting with retaining free movement.

And, of course, cults tend to have sell by dates.

Maybe you'll be waiting in vain, like Bob Marley.

[ragingpup]

You've been predicting the collapse of the current government ever since the day after they won last year's general election with the date of the said collapse being periodically put back. It's a bit like watching one of those religious cults that predicts the end of the world and then has to have a re-think when it doesn't happen.

I think 2022 remains the best you can hope for and I have doubts about whether Labour will be successful then -The Great Leader will be 73 and the electorate will either be told or will work out that would mean that he would be 78 by the end of a full term unless he stood down, in which case the possibility of Diane Abbott putting her hat in the ring would loom large. In addition, I think Labour are in danger of being rumbled over Europe with their 'working class' support working out that their constant references to remaining in the Single Market meaning that they are flirting with retaining free movement.

And, of course, cults tend to have sell by dates.

Maybe you'll be waiting in vain, like Bob Marley.

Hi Kerr,

Completely accept the problem Labour has with the 'working classes'/single market/free movement problem - as I've said before I wish Labour would make more about the elephant in the room; namely that if you remove/halt the free flow of labour to both skilled and low skilled positions in the UK, how are we planning to:

1. Pay for a huge upskilling programme for UK workers to be trained to fill the skilled positioned

2. Pay for the wage increases that would be needed for UK workers to undertake both skilled and unskilled work that is currently being undertaken by immigrant workers?

Even the likes of GF would surely have to accept that immigrant workers bring an overall net benefit to the UK - they make us better off as an economy and therefore through taxes etc bring in more revenue that should then be appropriately redirected to adjusting public services for their presence - in other words, paying their way (as opposed to, as GF would argue, being a drain on public services etc).

Leaving aside the huge doubt about whether enough of the net increase in revenue brought in by migrant workers is being allocated appropriately in public services that their presence will necessitate, can we agree that this 'upskilling and wage raising challenge' of ending free movement, especially if, as the working class voters seem to want, a radical ending of free movement and even large scale deportation, is going to be enormously expensive, possibly eclipsing any costs of paying university fees/loans, cutting any taxes etc. It would be a HUUUUGE cost! Why isn't any party discussing this?? Why isn't anyone on here recognising the huge challenge this would be if we have a radical ending of free movement?

Getting back to my point, I think this situation fits more with 'traditional' labour as an opportunity. To date, they are the only party that has, through Corbyn, spoken out against the use of migrant labour to undercut the UK work force. But even that was no where near enough. I would like Labour to by proposing the idea of how the ending of free movement would sit together with national retraining/upskilling programmes as well as new minimum wage structures and tax schemes to set about ending wage undercutting and skilling up UK nationals in the future. Wouldn't that appeal to the 'migration focused' working class voters who have gone over to the tories/UKIP or further right?

I don't think that these proposals would be a natural fit for the Conservatives, whose free market fixation is much more suited to exploiting cheap labour however it can be found in order to maximise profits, and certainly not in favour of paying alternatively for training up skills when it can simply be imported. And yes, Blair and New Labour would agree with this approach too.


Other points you raise: Corbyn a cult? Maybe, but having attended re*****ised Labour and Momentum meetings, it is a bloomin' big one with masses of normal people joined and attending with commitment not because of a 'leader-wow' factor (it's Corbyn - come on, there is no Wow factor other than someone who at last is talking about an alternative to centre-right politics - it's like your Granddad has just stepped forward!). But it is a mass movement, and from my experience, a very bright and powerful one - Corbyn is just a starting point and a figure head for the moment. If it helps you to sleep at night, by all means call it a cult :-)

But good point made (again) on Corbyn's age - so lot's being done behind the scenes regarding successors - what do you and others think of Laura Piddock who is a bookies favourite at the moment? VERY young, but quite fearless - I think normal folk would relate very well to her. How soon she's be ready to cope with the pressure cooker is hard to say, but possible successor?

Hope you're well.

[animallittle3]

Good post pup .

I would also like to acknowledge the fantastic work that's getting carried out by Momentum .

It's nice to be involved again in the Labour Party and since my representative union days are now behind me due to a change in jobs it's certainly filled the void .

It's far from the militant left wing rabble the MSM would have you believe , people from all walks of life wanting to get involved and improve the lifes of working class people , which is what the Labour Party was founded to do .

If capitalism and neoliberalism was such a roaring success then this movement wouldn't have got off the ground , go figure as you might say .

Where there was anger and frustration that is now channeled into taking on the tories , the system and the way things are .

For far too long the working class have just taken it , exploited , ignored or simply thrown on the scrap heap and left to rot , not anymore .

I changed jobs last year , after years and years of bullying bosses , poor pay and frustration I finally landed a job at one of the UK's bigger companies , I work for COOP Distribution .

The company is wonderful , bosses who care about me , pay that is substantially higher for this sector , my voice valued , I go the extra mile because of the above .


That is what working life should be like for everyone today , unfortunately it's not the norm .

The work is just getting started , change is a coming .

[millertop]

When this first came out I thought the government should step in, after seeing this then maybe it’s best for them to go under without any help.
Still I feel for workers
http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-42853895

Sorry for bringing this thread back up but them that work there need to know these things

[Redshank]

Any thoughts on who you think has been stealing pension funds other than Robert Maxwell

In light of the £990m pension funding shortfall coupled with ongoing dividend payments (illegal when running a pension deficit) and hefty management bonuses despite the parlous state of the company, I'd say it's pretty damned obvious who's been stealing the pension fund.

While we're at it, guess who'll be left to pick up the pieces and bale out yet another private company pension fund. Yes you've guessed it, the good old taxpayer.