George Cooper goes Posh

[Furberstreet]

It looks like Rochdale and Bury will be joining us in League Two next season provided that we stay up.

[MikeSB]

You must be one of the few people who don't believe that the level and intensity of coaching doesn't make any difference. Crewe attract boys from a certain number of miles beyond what you call 'local', simply because it is Cat 2. The coaches work there (and improve their own qualifications), because it is Cat 2. They almost certainly wouldn't bring through as many players to fill slots in the team if they operated at Cat 3, so they'd need to sign quite a few players at a wage two to three times more (or more?) than 'our own' currently accept; and of what quality might such players be? Probably not sufficiently good enough to lift us further up the table. Would they produce even half a million pound players under a Cat 3? The evidence from other clubs doesn't support that, with maybe Exeter being the exception, but they have a geographical advantage.

I must be Derek but it doesn't say that I am wrong and the evidence of the other thread on the success of academy players in the PL are less than 1%...but I forgot one important bit of evidence that will prove you and others wrong about the level of academy..

You mentioned some of those players that gave us 7 million in transfer fees right? Never mind all the other millions from the likes of Ashton and you made the point that was BEFORE the introduction of the EEEP academy scheme right? So how much did we spend on coaching in the days of Platt? How much year on year since up to the EEEP? You want more evidence from even our club that proves the EEEP is a failure?

One plain and simple fact and that is ALL our success times in the Championship and all those millions we got in sales were BEFORE the introduction of the EEEP and what have we got since? less than one million in sales over 5 years? and a team struggling in L1 and L2.

You could argue that coaching can improve players but then how many do you need is another question? Dario managed it with a couple of helpers and was the First team manager as well. We now have an Academy Manager, loads of coaches for different age groups, educational assistants, an under 18 manager? An under 23 manager, a First team manager and a First team assistant manager and no doubt more assistants? Now how much does all that cost? Well over one million pounds PER season and why most lower league clubs don't want it.

So ALL the evidence so far is that the quality and intensity of coaching makes a significant difference has been disproved at ALL levels...Something Jimmy Greaves and me could have told you mate...and saved ALL clubs millions in the process..

[bigroof]

"and what have we got since? less than one million in sales over 5 years? and a team struggling in L1 and L2" (Mike S

As so often, you've completely disregarded what I outlined during the thread, earlier: not £1m, but £4m approx in that time.

It's irrelevant what Dario managed in the past; everything was different, for every club. Crewe still have their 'niche' and it's still working at the moment. The foreign players being drafted in at even below Premiership level, has changed the game. I would think, also, that more and more Academy products from within Premiership clubs are finding game time at that level, bit by bit. EEEP is not a failed experiment - yet anyway, even if the levels of compensation don't favour the likes of Crewe. And your old chestnut, Jimmy Greaves - you're not going to tell me he take on board advice about making runs, dovetailing with team-mates, being aware of team shape, like any other successful player.

[jimmyboldon]

Players careers are short? What retire at age 30? Ever heard of anyone else retiring at that age? I doubt even PL retire and go onto do something else...Danny Murphy for example? I think that is the worst excuse I've heard..

a
Have read and re-read that so so many times. Just can't make any sense out of it at all. So many contradictions.

[MikeSB]

a
Have read and re-read that so so many times. Just can't make any sense out of it at all. So many contradictions.

OK, the point was made that players have to get what money they can get as their careers are so short! I was just responding to that although there may be others...

I was simply saying that is of course true because most players retire at what by the age of 35 although some go on. Most then go on and do something else. Eric Barnes a former Crewe player opened a menswear shop in the town which he kept on for what? 30 more years. So although footballers can earn a lot of money in their relatively short 'football' careers, it doesn't follow that is the end of their life or career in other fields....So its NOT essential they 'get what they can' while playing etc....Apologies if that is not the question you were thinking of...

[MikeSB]

"and what have we got since? less than one million in sales over 5 years? and a team struggling in L1 and L2" (Mike S

As so often, you've completely disregarded what I outlined during the thread, earlier: not £1m, but £4m approx in that time.

It's irrelevant what Dario managed in the past; everything was different, for every club. Crewe still have their 'niche' and it's still working at the moment. The foreign players being drafted in at even below Premiership level, has changed the game. I would think, also, that more and more Academy products from within Premiership clubs are finding game time at that level, bit by bit. EEEP is not a failed experiment - yet anyway, even if the levels of compensation don't favour the likes of Crewe. And your old chestnut, Jimmy Greaves - you're not going to tell me he take on board advice about making runs, dovetailing with team-mates, being aware of team shape, like any other successful player.

Its highly relevant what Dario did in the past!

You made the point the EEEP has only been in force 5 or so years...I then made a comment we haven't 'sold' anyone in that time for decent money and most of the the many millions we got was pre the EEEP era and so why change that model whereby the cost and number of coaches rocketed which has not been successful both in money coming in and players being good enough for even the bottom league when the expectation was just the opposite. ie It my contention that based on my own long standing views on coaching the recent evidence shows that the more intensive coaching they receive makes for better footballers...

The game has moved on but natural ability hasn't. And most people tend to agree that you cannot 'coach' that in no matter how much intensive time and effort put in. Games and fitness levels and awareness and competition and opportunity to play is far more significant and why that doesn't change from any era in the past and our international success or even our local success was not down to how much coaching they get...

Your argument could be that its too early to tell as 5 years is too short a time for the EEEP and another eg 10 years will be more appropriate a time to know one way or the other. Of course in that time it will cost this club 7.6m pounds to find out..ie in layman's terms, a 'wing and a prayer' when IF its true what you and others claim is true Derek, thousands of kids and ****s will have gone through academies higher or equal to Cat2 and failed to make the grade that should be as good if not better than most if not all of ours and we could sign and develop those when they are much older and we don't have to wait and spend all that money. Raw talent will shine through irrespective of academies or coaching and its just a case of looking for them but if you have dozens of your own, you tend not to look that far..

That is why we are signing other clubs academy players as they MUST be better than ours but I would make two proviso's if we do....We should NOT have to pay their wages and secondly we get an option to sign them on professional contracts...Otherwise we really are only developing other clubs players, not by coaching but giving them game time and paying their wages to boot..

So I doubt that we will ever agree on this Derek and so all we can hope for is we don't go down having spent that 4.5 millions on a training facility...

ATB

Mike

[AlexLeicester]

Congratulations to George for scoring for Peterborough on his debut.
I just thought I'd return to the subject of the thread. I get rather bored with all this 'get rid of the Academy' bumf. It's a stuck record: I gloss over it since nothing is being said now that wasn't said years ago, and with the same remarkably positive effect.

[MikeSB]

Congratulations to George for scoring for Peterborough on his debut.
I just thought I'd return to the subject of the thread. I get rather bored with all this 'get rid of the Academy' bumf. It's a stuck record: I gloss over it since nothing is being said now that wasn't said years ago, and with the same remarkably positive effect.

At least I have been consistent and it's really OK to do as the Board is doing and ignore the reality that academies are yesterday's idea and you either change the model or become extinct....5m down the drain and heading for non league or just scraping by is not my idea of positivity when we needed someone with vision to say, right let's REVIEW what we did and whether its reasonable or cost effective to continue with it...

It really never made any sense to put ALL your eggs in one basket with the board has done and even now with Rome burning we don't even hear Nero, ie Bowler screaming, it's the Christians, aka MikeSB's who are responsible!

I don't think there is any other football club that puts almost all its revenue or its transfer income back into a training school for kids...I also don't think that many clubs have had the 25 millions we have had and squandered it so recklessly...

Non league is not that bad really and we can still train up the local kids with aspirations of the PL one day...In the meantime the City of Rome aka Reaseheath, lies in ruins!

[bigroof]

Congratulations to George for scoring for Peterborough on his debut.
I just thought I'd return to the subject of the thread. I get rather bored with all this 'get rid of the Academy' bumf. It's a stuck record: I gloss over it since nothing is being said now that wasn't said years ago, and with the same remarkably positive effect.

Yes, congratulations to George. You have to hope he’ll do well there, not just for himself, but also for the potential add-ons to come Crewe’s way.
Sorry to contribute to your boredom AlexLeicester, but the Academy debate, whilst perhaps ‘done to death’, is quite important regarding our club, even if it does creep into all sorts of other threads, usually courtesy of MikeSB. I got sucked in again, even though I promised myself I wouldn’t this season!
Anyway, marginally ‘on topic’, without George yesterday, Kirk showed what a good player he could yet be for us; a combination of natural talent, and good coaching perhaps?

[alexmick]

Yes, congratulations to George. You have to hope he’ll do well there, not just for himself, but also for the potential add-ons to come Crewe’s way.
Sorry to contribute to your boredom AlexLeicester, but the Academy debate, whilst perhaps ‘done to death’, is quite important regarding our club, even if it does creep into all sorts of other threads, usually courtesy of MikeSB. I got sucked in again, even though I promised myself I wouldn’t this season!
Anyway, marginally ‘on topic’, without George yesterday, Kirk showed what a good player he could yet be for us; a combination of natural talent, and good coaching perhaps?

Spot on with that. It is a damn good job people do post on here regarding whatever topic they wish to raise, including the academy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this subject, either one way or another. Just annoys me when some posters are not only rude to others, but insult their intelligence besides. This type of behaviour sent me packing away from this forum three years ago, simply because the moderators failed to act in stopping such childish antics. I returned thinking that things had settled down, with people being more considerate to one another and accepting that others had opinions that should be respected (even though they were not the same as their own).

Concerning the two youngsters who grabbed their chance yesterday (Kirk and Reilly), I thought that they played very well and I see these academy graduates developing into good professionals, given time. One thing about Artell is this (IMO). He does give the youngsters plenty of opportunity to show their potential. Before Artell took over, Ainley had been cast out into the wilderness and was a forgotten man. Having persevered with the lad, the Crewe management team have a very good player on their hands. I believe he is a better prospect than Cooper and is displaying that with his performances right now. A lad who is quick, tricky, can take a man on and beat him. Hopefully, the manager can convince Ainley to get that contract signed. Those are my opinions. I don't expect people to agree with them, just to respect what I think.