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Thread: Thoughts on flops

  1. #1
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    Thoughts on flops

    Just read that Thauvin could be joining Bayern Munich in the summer. Last year he was linked with Barcelona. Not that he's necessarily going to either of those, but he's a star of the Ligue 1 right now and big European clubs are looking at him right now.

    Same can't be said for Cabella. He's slowly faded from the Marseille team and is now on loan at St. Etienne.

    So two former players of ours, both arguably flops at our club, gone in two different directions in terms of proving themselves since they left us.

    Personally, I feel that Thauvin never really did the get the chance to prove himself here. There was also the probable issue of him lacking motivation which is of course a major negative - BUT I have a feeling McClaren had something to do with this. And that's the point of this thread I guess - we tend to write players off as flops when really I think it's the club that has been largely unsuccessful in nurturing, improving and ultimately establishing foreign players in our various sides over the years. We all know that the coaching at this club has been generally average or below, at times appalling, at least in the years leading up to the appointment of Rafa. We have bought talented players and then counted on them simply getting used to the PL on their own (eg. Cabaye + Ben Arfa and Pardew relying on them to make stuff happen on their own when his simple tactics weren't or even were working). That's not a way forward, and I think Thauvin suffered from this. He came on as a sub most the time and it's not that he hadn't a clue as a player, but it's more that he didn't know what to do out there because there was no plan for him. 'Put him on and hope for the best'. Not really a sustainable philosophy.

    I realize that some players are in fact not good enough. Cabella had the technical skills, but I believe he simply wasn't good enough for this level on many other parametres.

    If we want to have success with buying foreign talent in the future, we need to make sure they want to play for us. Then, we must make sure there is a Plan A and B in place for their progress so that their development isn't arbitrary. This requires patience and not shipping 20mil players out on loan five months after joining us just because they haven't contributed as much as soon as expected.
    Last edited by HughieG; 18-02-2018 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Spell!ng

  2. #2
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    Looking at it from another point of view, when Shearer came here as a youngster for trials the lad playing in goal picked up an injury and Big Al volunteered to go between the sticks and finished the trial game as just another player.

    How this club's history could have been changed by that one game.

  3. #3
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    It's hard to judge anything under Partdue. If there's one thing consistent about him - his teams are frightfully inconsistent. His team can give you good results then a long run of awful results. Throw in the players you mentioned and it's hard to judge.

    Neither struck me as a "blood and thunder" type of player. They were wishy washy. So if the league gives them time and space on the ball, chances are high that you can see the best of these types of players.

    I think you can see this at a magnified scale with Pigba at the moment. Fantastic when the opposition are 10% slower and he has an extra second of thinking time. Here, where those luxuries are not afforded, some players are very hit an miss. Look at Di Maria, Pedro, Robben, Ben Arfa, an older Torres etc. Not that I'm buying into Sky's "Best league in the world propaganda", it is just that this league is mental from top to bottom and some players make the transition and do the business whereas some really, really struggle here. When you transplant them into another league they sometimes shine.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by trinitoon View Post
    It's hard to judge anything under Partdue. If there's one thing consistent about him - his teams are frightfully inconsistent. His team can give you good results then a long run of awful results. Throw in the players you mentioned and it's hard to judge.

    Neither struck me as a "blood and thunder" type of player. They were wishy washy. So if the league gives them time and space on the ball, chances are high that you can see the best of these types of players.

    I think you can see this at a magnified scale with Pigba at the moment. Fantastic when the opposition are 10% slower and he has an extra second of thinking time. Here, where those luxuries are not afforded, some players are very hit an miss. Look at Di Maria, Pedro, Robben, Ben Arfa, an older Torres etc. Not that I'm buying into Sky's "Best league in the world propaganda", it is just that this league is mental from top to bottom and some players make the transition and do the business whereas some really, really struggle here. When you transplant them into another league they sometimes shine.
    Yes - this is exactly what I was going to post. Id be more p*ssed off if Thauvin (or Cabella) had succeded at another PL club. This league is different.

  5. #5
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    Agreed, although in regards Thauvin - i could fully see him making it at someone like Liverpool.

    Or a team that likes to attack forward.

    I think we might see him back in the prem.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammy89 View Post
    Agreed, although in regards Thauvin - i could fully see him making it at someone like Liverpool.

    Or a team that likes to attack forward.

    I think we might see him back in the prem.
    Agreed and the discussion not so much about whether they prosper in different leagues as much as it is (and should be) about what we do with players when we sign them. Obviously a young lad with a heavy price tag needs to be handled in a certain way, and it seems we could've possibly gotten more out of certain players over the years had we, as has been suggested, had a better manager at the time, but I believe many factors play a part in this (coaching, settling well, understanding the system, etc.).

  7. #7
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    WE IN GENERAL HAVE ****E COACHES

    in nearly 10 years under different managers i havent seen many players get better

    you had cabaye and maybe 5 others but many go backwards here

    even lascelles hasnt progressed as many thought

    we have a tradition of number 9,s but when was the last one we saw here apart from shearer get better
    maybe andy cole

    i may have missed a couple but we use old players to much

    we dont look ahaed

    there are many young excellent coaches out there who would improve our players.

    it used to be a lot of ex pros went into coachingg
    where as now many are choosing to be a coach before a player or those that realise they couldnt become a player take on coaching and travell to learn the techniques worlsd wide

    yet we rely on pedro and some old pros

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pboromag View Post
    WE IN GENERAL HAVE ****E COACHES

    in nearly 10 years under different managers i havent seen many players get better

    you had cabaye and maybe 5 others but many go backwards here

    even lascelles hasnt progressed as many thought

    we have a tradition of number 9,s but when was the last one we saw here apart from shearer get better
    maybe andy cole

    i may have missed a couple but we use old players to much

    we dont look ahaed

    there are many young excellent coaches out there who would improve our players.

    it used to be a lot of ex pros went into coachingg
    where as now many are choosing to be a coach before a player or those that realise they couldnt become a player take on coaching and travell to learn the techniques worlsd wide

    yet we rely on pedro and some old pros
    Hahhahaa....

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pboromag View Post



    even lascelles hasnt progressed as many thought




  10. #10
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    Despite what you think, Lascelles has without doubt improved his game, you only need to look at the stats.Thats down to the lad himself, and the coaching staff, not forgetting our manager who is after all, world class,and I believe a good man manager.

  11. #11
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    Did Thauvin not complain of being homesick after a couple of weeks of joining.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal View Post
    not saying he hasnt improved
    just not as much as if he had gone to a club who have very good coaching set ups

    we havent got it

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinostongue View Post
    Despite what you think, Lascelles has without doubt improved his game, you only need to look at the stats.Thats down to the lad himself, and the coaching staff, not forgetting our manager who is after all, world class,and I believe a good man manager.
    not sayingh he hasnt improved just not as much as he would under a decent coaching set up
    i would say he has gone stagnenet under rafa

    he is being asked to do to much ,has to much pressure on him
    he is dealing with it well but we need an old head with him
    me and a few others have said this any times

    a couple of seasons ago i had him down a sa future england centre half
    not any more
    a decent one but not a great one

  14. #14
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    Yes - he's stagnated.

    I even agree with you an older head next to him would be good but to say he's stagnated, sakes

  15. #15
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    yes but we only have fizzy players if you listen to some of the widescreen brigade on here

    yet now they say he is mustard

    or is he a flop

    he was brought as a premier centre half

    i still think he was good enough prospect to get an england call up before now

    now he might get a squad place if there a re a few injuries

    so yes stagnated

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pboromag View Post
    yes but we only have fizzy players if you listen to some of the widescreen brigade on here

    yet now they say he is mustard

    or is he a flop

    he was brought as a premier centre half

    i still think he was good enough prospect to get an england call up before now

    now he might get a squad place if there a re a few injuries

    so yes stagnated
    he was bought as a POTENTIAL premier league centre half. he was a championship player, and a young one at that, when bought and hadn't played in the premier league at all. so if he has stagnated then he is still a championship player... hmmmm

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pboromag View Post
    not saying he hasnt improved


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