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Thread: Our youth system has failed us

  1. #21
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    Maybe its not the youth system thats failed the team, probably the club thats failed the youth system.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by geofoxposse View Post
    Maybe its not the youth system thats failed the team, probably the club thats failed the youth system.
    That's exactly what I'm saying George!

    But regardless of budget, my point stands - we needed and still need prospects that will come through and make a real impact on the first team and it's simply not happening.

  3. #23
    These things are cyclical though, can you name any club that produces youth players as consistently as your are suggesting?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TerryTheTerror View Post
    These things are cyclical though, can you name any club that produces youth players as consistently as your are suggesting?
    Hamilton, Hearts, Livi, Morton...

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryTheTerror View Post
    These things are cyclical though, can you name any club that produces youth players as consistently as your are suggesting?
    Peter Houston resigned in January 2013 (some time after grudgingly putting Armstrong in)

    That's 5 years ago Terry. 5 YEARS ago since an impact player broke into our first team!

    Is that too short a cycle to expect a result? I think not.

  6. #26
    What's the solution?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PortugueseFrank View Post
    What's the solution?
    Not sure but I do know that unfairly dismissing the tentpole of the youth set up was most certainly NOT it.

  8. #28
    Armstrong didn't really come through the youth system as such we got him from ICT when they binned their young anes after the 1st team got relegated.

    Will take years to get our youth system back to what it was, especially when we are going to be in the 2nd tier of this new SFA development thingy. We had loads of kids from all over Scotland with us before, now i fear all we'll get is the dregs and other teams cast offs. Who from the west coast etc is going to want to come to us to develop their art when they could have a 1st tier team on their doorstep?

    We sadly are a shambles now. 1st team & development team.

  9. #29
    This is one of those issues were you can state the stats to suit your argument. You don't think our youth stem has been working for us, I disagree to an extent.

    Great question by Frank and the only answer so far isn't an answer.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryTheTerror View Post
    This is one of those issues were you can state the stats to suit your argument. You don't think our youth stem has been working for us, I disagree to an extent.

    Great question by Frank and the only answer so far isn't an answer.

    What? A revamp and rebuild, dead wood out and new youth dev coach? Is that not an answer?

    What qualifies as an answer that you're happy with ?

  11. #31
    Doubled SFA funding at all youth level. Restructured league system based on multiple cups throughout the year. Bonuses to clubs when their youth players finally get capped. Longevity is the key in youth development

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by stokearab View Post
    What? A revamp and rebuild, dead wood out and new youth dev coach? Is that not an answer?

    What qualifies as an answer that you're happy with ?
    What parts of the structure need revamped or rebuilt? What shape would it take?

    This isn't an argument against btw. I am genuinely interested in the detail of what people want to see. I think it's useful for us all to think about the structure we would like to see.

    It's easy to say what happened and what's happening that we don't like but I think it's so much more useful for us all to think about what we want to see and ways to go about achieving it.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by arab_pat View Post
    Doubled SFA funding at all youth level. Restructured league system based on multiple cups throughout the year. Bonuses to clubs when their youth players finally get capped. Longevity is the key in youth development
    A lot of money neccesary there but interesting idea.

    What specifically should Dundee United be doing differently?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PortugueseFrank View Post
    What parts of the structure need revamped or rebuilt? What shape would it take?

    This isn't an argument against btw. I am genuinely interested in the detail of what people want to see. I think it's useful for us all to think about the structure we would like to see.

    It's easy to say what happened and what's happening that we don't like but I think it's so much more useful for us all to think about what we want to see and ways to go about achieving it.
    Lets start at the beginning.

    We allocate an annual budget to youth development, no doubt a very significant sum including salaries and costs.

    So why do we do this? When a business funds development it usually has a mission statement or a desired outcome in return for the investment. So why do we do it and what is the desired outcome?
    The desired outcome is to develop players for the first team [who may help to offset our development programme costs by being subject to a transfer fee in the future] If we don't achieve that what is the point in funding a programme in the first place?

    While there is no guarantee of annual success, the measure of overall success of the project has to be that from time to time either a) a player breaks through and impacts on the first team in a positive way ie takes the place of a player who might otherwise be transferred into the club, or b) breaks through and impacts in such a way as to attract a transfer fee. The minimum requirement for measuring success and value for money is that A happens on a fairly regular basis.

    If neither A or B is happening on a consistent basis the Youth Team or Development Coach/Manager is deemed to be failing. Failing = need for change. Currently I believe this is where we are.

    Under the current board it's likely nothing will change because as we all know we have a chairman who knows nothing about football and effecting the required change costs money and time which he won't want to contribute while planning his exit to the USA

    A new regime should ideally review the employees currently involved and decide on their suitability to remain. However the Head of Development should be removed and a new one appointed imo.
    The new Head of Development, if not already experienced with other set ups should be encouraged to visit other clubs - ideally in England where we do not compete - with a view to finding out if there are processes we could import/ improve our set up with.


    That would be a good starting point but as I'm not party to what happens at United I can't comment further. What is evident is that we have failed/are currently failing if we have been unable to develop a youth into a good first team player in 5 years.
    Last edited by stokearab; 21-02-2018 at 05:33 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by PortugueseFrank View Post
    A lot of money neccesary there but interesting idea.

    What specifically should Dundee United be doing differently?
    I think if you saw how much is spent on youth development by the SFA itself you’d see that they can easily afford to vastly increase that investment.
    In relation to Dundee United themselves investment is also key. Put all youth coaches through every UEFA training badge under the sun at no cost to the coach him/herself. Would be a great advert for enthusiastic coaches that are wanting to learn themselves. Positive coaching breeds quality young footballers.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitfieldarab View Post
    Armstrong didn't really come through the youth system as such we got him from ICT when they binned their young anes after the 1st team got relegated.

    Will take years to get our youth system back to what it was, especially when we are going to be in the 2nd tier of this new SFA development thingy. We had loads of kids from all over Scotland with us before, now i fear all we'll get is the dregs and other teams cast offs. Who from the west coast etc is going to want to come to us to develop their art when they could have a 1st tier team on their doorstep?

    We sadly are a shambles now. 1st team & development team.
    Don't know if you can confirm this - did we sell a youth to Man U at some point in the last 2 years? I seem to recall reading something on those lines but unsure whether it happened or not?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by arab_pat View Post
    I think if you saw how much is spent on youth development by the SFA itself you’d see that they can easily afford to vastly increase that investment.
    In relation to Dundee United themselves investment is also key. Put all youth coaches through every UEFA training badge under the sun at no cost to the coach him/herself. Would be a great advert for enthusiastic coaches that are wanting to learn themselves. Positive coaching breeds quality young footballers.
    Also, I missed out from my long rant that we need to be able to pay a salary for the Head of YD that will attract candidates that can deliver the objectives. Ideally a candidate who is known and respected in the game, someone that parents might say of "I want my boy coached by that guy". Choose Dundee United

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by stokearab View Post
    Don't know if you can confirm this - did we sell a youth to Man U at some point in the last 2 years? I seem to recall reading something on those lines but unsure whether it happened or not?
    Don't know about that but we did beat Man Utd in some youth tournament last season so maybe they were sniffing about.

    I heard that we'd sold a lad to Celtic for £25k last season too and i'm sure he was from that same age group. Celtic do this a lot, must make you think what's the point

  19. #39
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    Can't expect youngsters to jump in and save the day regarding the first team. Need good, successful senior players to bring them on and nurture their talents and it's a gradual process.
    We have senior players throwing in the towel and getting horsed 6-1 by Falkirk and 3-0 by Morton so where's the role model for these kids to better themselves?
    Also when we play a youngster in the first team they usually get dropped no matter how well they do. What did Cammy Ballantyne do wrong in his last first team appearance? Yet he gets dropped for a midfielder to play right back.
    Tbh the youth setup appears to be half arsed anyway (much like Dundee United as a club these days) with no repercussions for how poorly they are doing in the development league and any player that's half decent gets sold for peanuts without playing for us. Would revamp the whole youth strategy or get rid.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by arab_pat View Post
    I think if you saw how much is spent on youth development by the SFA itself you’d see that they can easily afford to vastly increase that investment.
    In relation to Dundee United themselves investment is also key. Put all youth coaches through every UEFA training badge under the sun at no cost to the coach him/herself. Would be a great advert for enthusiastic coaches that are wanting to learn themselves. Positive coaching breeds quality young footballers.
    Coach education is a brilliant point you make.

    To be clear, I don't know if we don't already do these things but I agree that continually striving for the most qualified and constantly developing coaches is a great idea.

    As a bare minimum at our level of resources we should push for it.

    Perhaps an area that the Youth Development board can examine.

    Also something senior pros at the club should be required to look at imo. John Rankin plays for QOTS but is youth coaching with Hearts. I like the idea of that. "My u12s coach is player x" would no doubt help attract young talent to us as oppose to over the road.

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