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Thread: OT: Jezzer turns his back on the referendum result

  1. #21
    Go on the Grauniad website, Hayle, and read what Corbyn says about nationalised industries. I said the EU 'has always had a left of centre' stance but I agree that the right is making some threatening noises but only in Austria are they mounting a serious attempt at power.
    The UK may well yet emerge from this by reshaping the EU in ways that Cameron would like to have done but had no cred. Oh, btw, the 1966 was a joke, Hayle.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by sidders View Post
    Go on the Grauniad website, Hayle, and read what Corbyn says about nationalised industries. I said the EU 'has always had a left of centre' stance but I agree that the right is making some threatening noises but only in Austria are they mounting a serious attempt at power.
    The UK may well yet emerge from this by reshaping the EU in ways that Cameron would like to have done but had no cred. Oh, btw, the 1966 was a joke, Hayle.
    Only in Austria - AfD? Italy (various)? OK, not in power but there is strong likelihood that they will soon hold the balance of power in coalitions. Watch this space.

    Nationalised industries - I have no bother with them. I don't even consider Corbyn remotely radical, I believe most of Europe has major utilities under government control. Just because they were poorly run here in the 70s/80s doesn't mean they have to be now (no reason why PFIs can't be well-handled either). However, JC's argument that re-nationalisation is cost neutral has, I believe, been radished by just about every report I have seen - granted some by vested interests. I hope that he is right.

    As for 1966 - apologies for not spotting the humour Sid, but the default for many is the little-Englander racist stance; it avoids having to find reasonable arguments I guess. I suspect that a lot of left-leaners voted Remain in a Pavlovian response to opposing anything Tory/UKIP. The EU is like the Tories on speed in many areas. I fail to see how anyone can dislike one and not the other tbh.

  3. #23

    Messy

    Quote Originally Posted by the_anticlough View Post
    Well, here's part of what he said in Coventry

    ''There will be some who will tell you that Brexit is a disaster for this country and some who will tell you that Brexit will create a land of milk and honey.

    The truth is more down to earth and it’s in our hands.

    Brexit is what we make of it together, the priorities and choices we make in the negotiations.

    This Conservative government is damaging our country and their priorities for Brexit risk increasing the damage.''


    Seems like 'Brexit' happening is still the working assumption. Does supporting some kind of Customs Union mean Brexit is absolutely impossible? Turkey is in a customs union with the EU and will probably never be a member.


    It does seem strange that this change has taken so long to happen. After all an agreement was made with the Tories after the referendum. I presume the general feeling is that the original brexiteers are now so uncertain that they will not react to this change? Is something else going on inside Labour, despite his words Corbyn does not look completely happy with what he is saying on this. The Customs Union does not stop Brexit though. What it does is make the economic advantages of leaving almost non-existant. The freedom to create trade agreements like those already tentatively agreed with Australia, China, India and partly with the USA will not be possible if a Customs Union form is used. It completely ties us to the EU in economic terms and yet we still have to pay for the priviledge of leaving?

    So much of central government has been on the basis of informal consent and now here, and to some extent with the Democrats and Republicans in the States, this seems to be challenged or removed.

    Very messy. May help Labour to bring them down but not sure than it is legally or economically worth it at this stage.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by HaylePie View Post
    Where to start?

    Things will change - very assured. What? How?

    Europe - 'left of centre' - Where? Austria and Germany have neo-nazis in Parliament (we had a single UKIP guy and they are hardly nutcase right wingers despite what's spouted), the Visegrad countries - left of centre? In fact, the whole left/right thing is nonsense with the EU as a good number of political parties to both Left and Right of the mainstream are EU-sceptic. Look at what is happening in Italy right now. Even in the UK, until today at least, JC was more likely to deliver a hard Brexit than May.

    The idea that the UK is out of kilter with most EU countries on refugees/immigration is laughable. There is a reason so many want to come here - because we are more welcoming and fair-minded, why else would people live in the abject poverty and disgraceful conditions in N France whilst not seeking asylum? The whole 'Brits are racists' defies all logic given the state of politics in Europe and is standard Brit self-loathing stuff. The WW2, 1966 stuff is poor from a guy as bright as you - if people want to make the case FOR the EU then fine - I love a good debate - but why does it have to manifest itself as being so AGAINST the UK all the time.
    Ouch, the Guardian lovers won't like that you racist, xenophobic,islamophobic,nazi. lol

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    Ouch, the Guardian lovers won't like that you racist, xenophobic,islamophobic,nazi. lol
    No matter which side people are on, John Crace's sketch in today's Guardian is well worth a read.

  6. #26
    I like Mr Hayle.....he talks a lot of sense

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Pie View Post
    Exactly, and it shows the folly of trusting a decision of this magnitude to an uninformed electorate. Still nobody knows what 'Brexit' actually means, including those negotiating it! I suspect many leavers voted on the romantic idea that it would mean all those nasty foreigners get sent packing and we rule the world again. I'm sure the likes of Soccerman and seriouspie still adhere to that, but anyone with half a brain must now realise that's not going to happen.
    I wonder what the people with a whole brain think?

  8. #28
    It's a very strange thing for me to say, but I'm with George Galloway on this, for those who George's saw opinion piece on 'This Week' last Thursday night. He was basically quoting Napoleon's "Never interrupt your enemy when he is busy making a mistake".

    Jeremy Corbyn didn't need to do or say anything. He was sitting pretty watching the Conservative Party publicly tear itself apart, whilst largely avoiding having to address the conflict between his own private view and that of the Blairites.

    Today, Jeremy has issued a statement which I still don't think will be personally satisfying to him, and by so doing has compromised the one quality that in many people's view sets him apart from the "typical" modern day politician, namely his relatively high degree of ideological integrity.

    I don't know if he's been 'got at' by the Blairites, or whether he's more like the "rest" than I gave him credit for, but it could be a bad move, especially in terms of trying to win back the working class Labour vote in the north.
    Last edited by jackal2; 26-02-2018 at 10:03 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by i961pie View Post
    I wonder what the people with a whole brain think?
    No point in asking Mr Elitist.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by tarquinbeech View Post
    No point in asking Mr Elitist.
    Says the half-wit who thinks that 5 seconds makes a minute!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by jackal2 View Post
    It's a very strange thing for me to say, but I'm with George Galloway on this, for those who George's saw opinion piece on 'This Week' last Thursday night. He was basically quoting Napoleon's "Never interrupt your enemy when he is busy making a mistake".

    Jeremy Corbyn didn't need to do or say anything. He was sitting pretty watching the Conservative Party publicly tear itself apart, whilst largely avoiding having to address the conflict between his own private view and that of the Blairites.

    Today, Jeremy has issued a statement which I still don't think will be personally satisfying to him, and by so doing has compromised the one quality that in many people's view sets him apart from the "typical" modern day politician, namely his relatively high degree of ideological integrity.

    I don't know if he's been 'got at' by the Blairites, or whether he's more like the "rest" than I gave him credit for, but it could be a bad move, especially in terms of trying to win back the working class Labour vote in the north.
    He had to do it sooner or later though, he's balancing the hard left vote against the young europhile vote and he can't do it forever. Maybe he's just thinking it's better to do it when he can maximise the pain for the Tories.
    Last edited by drillerpie; 26-02-2018 at 10:28 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by drillerpie View Post
    He had to do it sooner or later though, he's balancing the hard left vote against the young europhile vote and he can't do it forever. Maybe he's just thinking it's better to do it when he can maximise the pain for the Tories.
    The younger Europhiles who make it from Twitterland to the polling station (so delete at least 50%!) were always likely to vote Labour anyway, especially in the south-east. It's the working class vote in the north of England who (finally) seem to have decided/realised that the Labour Party doesn't actually represent them, after years of voting that way simply "because we're working class". This should be a fantastic opportunity for the Conservative Party to make hay, except they've got too many problems with their own imposters. At present, the expressed view of 52% of the country is not being convincingly represented by either of the two major parties.
    Last edited by jackal2; 26-02-2018 at 10:44 PM.

  13. #33
    [QUOTE=seriouspie;38813305]I can't remember us ever ruling the world ...../QUOTE]

    You must have missed the history lesson about our imperialist predecessors then? And the slavery and colonialism that came with it.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePass View Post
    This Marxist has been against the EU all his political life. But now sees a way of trying to bring the Tories down. Sheer brass faced political posturing with no regard to the majority that voted out.

    Only the uneducated and Momentum members cannot see what a total hypocritical lying chancer this man is.

    Thick voting students..be aware...



    The failing Guardian readers will be happy.
    I am so so glad that you are against this ,
    you are a massive pancake tosser and in my opinion anything you are against, is in general good !
    In your many many posts I think I have only ever seen one that might have been possibly worthwhile and valid !........

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by jackal2 View Post
    The younger Europhiles who make it from Twitterland to the polling station (so delete at least 50%!) were always likely to vote Labour anyway, especially in the south-east. It's the working class vote in the north of England who (finally) seem to have decided/realised that the Labour Party doesn't actually represent them, after years of voting that way simply "because we're working class". This should be a fantastic opportunity for the Conservative Party to make hay, except they've got too many problems with their own imposters. At present, the expressed view of 52% of the country is not being convincingly represented by either of the two major parties.
    At the last election the gap in turnout between younger and older voters was less than in the referendum: about 60 per cent for 18 to 24 year olds against around 85 per cent for the oldest voters. This happens in every country, not just the UK.

    Some interesting breakdowns of the 2017 vote here

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13...eral-election/


    Agree that Labour doesn't represent the working class anymore, although the fact that Labour voters took decades to figure that out and carried on voting for them from a sense of belonging or identity for so long just highlights how voting is often not a rational process.

    By the same token anyone with low skills doing a low wage job would have to have a screw loose to vote Conservative, UKIP barely exists anymore. Who represents the working class now? Nobody really, not even the unions, which probably explains some of the political trends in Europe and the US lately, but you'd have a hard time persuading me that May can take these votes from Corbyn.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by jackal2 View Post
    It's a very strange thing for me to say, but I'm with George Galloway on this, for those who George's saw opinion piece on 'This Week' last Thursday night. He was basically quoting Napoleon's "Never interrupt your enemy when he is busy making a mistake".

    Jeremy Corbyn didn't need to do or say anything. He was sitting pretty watching the Conservative Party publicly tear itself apart, whilst largely avoiding having to address the conflict between his own private view and that of the Blairites.

    Today, Jeremy has issued a statement which I still don't think will be personally satisfying to him, and by so doing has compromised the one quality that in many people's view sets him apart from the "typical" modern day politician, namely his relatively high degree of ideological integrity.

    I don't know if he's been 'got at' by the Blairites, or whether he's more like the "rest" than I gave him credit for, but it could be a bad move, especially in terms of trying to win back the working class Labour vote in the north.
    Well he fooled you George, Crusty has sold his golden principles in his drive to be PM. hilarious.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJHGzA9g3Ok

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jackal2 View Post
    It's a very strange thing for me to say, but I'm with George Galloway on this, for those who George's saw opinion piece on 'This Week' last Thursday night. He was basically quoting Napoleon's "Never interrupt your enemy when he is busy making a mistake".

    Jeremy Corbyn didn't need to do or say anything. He was sitting pretty watching the Conservative Party publicly tear itself apart, whilst largely avoiding having to address the conflict between his own private view and that of the Blairites.

    Today, Jeremy has issued a statement which I still don't think will be personally satisfying to him, and by so doing has compromised the one quality that in many people's view sets him apart from the "typical" modern day politician, namely his relatively high degree of ideological integrity.

    I don't know if he's been 'got at' by the Blairites, or whether he's more like the "rest" than I gave him credit for, but it could be a bad move, especially in terms of trying to win back the working class Labour vote in the north.
    Best post on this fred, Mr Jackal 2. I think Corbyn has been under immense pressure for Labour to cash in on the train crash that is the current Tory party.
    It's true that, to some extent, he didn't have to do anything other than sit back and watch the enemy tear chunks out of one another but that left him wide open to the charge that Labour didn't actually stand for anything.
    And the corollary to the Working Class (whoever they are) not being represented by any party these days is that Labour is free to appeal beyond the old divide of the poor and disenfranchised. The professional and intellectual groups are there to be recruited by a party that gives a fig about justice and a fairer distribution of wealth.
    On the back of this, can I say that I am still not convinced by Jezzer but he will have to carry the standard until something/someone more convincing emerges.
    Is the same true of Kevin Nolan?

  18. #38
    .. I hope all you Corbynistas are happy to be aligned with the lying hypocrite who, when it came to a crunch, couldn’t fight his way through the pincers of bullying Momentum and the south-east Blairite lobby. He’s a weak, spineless apology of a politician
    What the mardy media and moaning Remoaners don’t get is that in a negotiation nobody outside the actual negotiators have any rights to determine the outcome at all. What, so far, has been outstanding is that the May-Davis team have shown us very little detail – just the odd snippet to shut up the media – which is exactly right.
    There won’t be any deal until the proverbial last minute because that’s the way the EU work – to agree anything ‘early’ would almost be loss of face for them. We should acknowledge that the EU are financial rapists and you do all you can to protect your interests.
    In the mean-time, screams from the Remoaners and political chancers will grow ever louder the nearer we get to exit time and the privileged establishment see their golden future slipping away.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlackHorse View Post
    .. I hope all you Corbynistas are happy to be aligned with the lying hypocrite who, when it came to a crunch, couldn’t fight his way through the pincers of bullying Momentum and the south-east Blairite lobby. He’s a weak, spineless apology of a politician
    What the mardy media and moaning Remoaners don’t get is that in a negotiation nobody outside the actual negotiators have any rights to determine the outcome at all. What, so far, has been outstanding is that the May-Davis team have shown us very little detail – just the odd snippet to shut up the media – which is exactly right.
    There won’t be any deal until the proverbial last minute because that’s the way the EU work – to agree anything ‘early’ would almost be loss of face for them. We should acknowledge that the EU are financial rapists and you do all you can to protect your interests.
    In the mean-time, screams from the Remoaners and political chancers will grow ever louder the nearer we get to exit time and the privileged establishment see their golden future slipping away.
    The tone of your comments pleases me. Now I know you're on the back foot.
    And while we're at it, do you agree with Bozo that crossing from Northern Ireland to the South is no different from crossing between two London Boroughs?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by sidders View Post
    The tone of your comments pleases me. Now I know you're on the back foot.
    And while we're at it, do you agree with Bozo that crossing from Northern Ireland to the South is no different from crossing between two London Boroughs?
    If Corbyn gets his way, there will be no border.

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-31396059.html

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