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Thread: OT Italian election

  1. #21
    I think Iíve posted this before on another thread, in the past, up until a year back I was living and working in Frankfurt and working very closely with quite a few Italians who had to come to Germany for work, with probably the same amount of Portuguese there too (similar story to the Italians).

    In there own words their country is fecked, there is no work there hence why they were in Germany working for lower wages than they thought they were worth (exploited by the Germans in their words).

    Their main gripe was the EU, they see their country as a gateway to Europe for immigrants, with one telling me that the immigrants were far better off financialy than his own mother who had worked their for most of her life, and he was very, very bitter about that.

    They are bitter and want change of some sort, I was there when the referendum was on and I was asked a lot by the Italians and the Portuguese in particular which way I was going to vote. A lot of them said that if they had the chance they would vote to leave, they want their countries back.

    Itís a shame as I can see what benefits the EU brings with living and working in Europe, yet theyíre is something about being British and independent, thereís a strange welcoming feeling when driving back from Germany when youíre on the boat back and see the cliffs of Dover, I guess home is home when all is said and done.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    That's google translate for you. To have put an accent in it, would have upset the lefties and the stereotyping racist accusations, would be flying.
    Is Google translate to blame for the unnecessary commas in your post, or is that down to your own illiteracy?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Pie View Post
    Is Google translate to blame for the unnecessary commas in your post, or is that down to your own illiteracy?
    I'm afraid google translate. I just copied and pasted.
    Sorry to disappoint. xx

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by keldsyke View Post
    I think Iíve posted this before on another thread, in the past, up until a year back I was living and working in Frankfurt and working very closely with quite a few Italians who had to come to Germany for work, with probably the same amount of Portuguese there too (similar story to the Italians).

    In there own words their country is fecked, there is no work there hence why they were in Germany working for lower wages than they thought they were worth (exploited by the Germans in their words).

    Their main gripe was the EU, they see their country as a gateway to Europe for immigrants, with one telling me that the immigrants were far better off financialy than his own mother who had worked their for most of her life, and he was very, very bitter about that.

    They are bitter and want change of some sort, I was there when the referendum was on and I was asked a lot by the Italians and the Portuguese in particular which way I was going to vote. A lot of them said that if they had the chance they would vote to leave, they want their countries back.

    Itís a shame as I can see what benefits the EU brings with living and working in Europe, yet theyíre is something about being British and independent, thereís a strange welcoming feeling when driving back from Germany when youíre on the boat back and see the cliffs of Dover, I guess home is home when all is said and done.
    Interesting perspective but I'd bear in mind that it's a small group, who incidentally are taking advantage of the free movement the EU offers by working in Germany.

    The African immigrants get around 30 euros per day allocated for them, which doesn't go to them but to the associations that house and feed them. The scrupulous ones do a good job, the ones run by organised crime pocket the 30e and leave them living in squalid conditions. Immigration is a lucrative business for the various mafias.

    Fake news reports of African migrants being put up in 5 star hotels and receiving 30e a day pocket money are the tools of Salvini's trade.

    I don't know how they make the connection between high youth unemployment and immigrants. Italy has had high youth unemployment and economic stagnation pretty much since Berlusconi came to power.

    They had the crash in 2008 but had never had the boom before that. Employment laws which made people on permanent contracts pretty much unsackable didn't help either (imo) and a lot of Italians have a kind of cognitive dissonance about this, praising the fluid labour markets of northern Europe while steadfastly refusing to liberalise their own, all while complaining about the lack of jobs. Anyway Renzi liberalised the employment laws a couple of years ago and the economy seems to be picking up.

    I don't know how much your friends' mothers earn but I think there was a bit of poetic licence involved, unless they really do make less than guys who don't speak the language and just stand outside supermarkets all day begging for change.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    I'm afraid google translate. I just copied and pasted.
    Sorry to disappoint. xx
    In that case, it's probably best if you stick to posting on subjects where you have at least a basic knowledge.

    Bye.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by drillerpie View Post
    Interesting perspective but I'd bear in mind that it's a small group, who incidentally are taking advantage of the free movement the EU offers by working in Germany.

    I don't know how much your friends' mothers earn but I think there was a bit of poetic licence involved, unless they really do make less than guys who don't speak the language and just stand outside supermarkets all day begging for change.
    Even though thereís free movement I think thatís the point that they had to move to Germany, interestingly at the time there was approx 200 of us working there with 22 different nationalities.


    I think he was referring to the fact that his mother had retired, payed into the system but was worse off than most coming across (in their eyes)

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by keldsyke View Post
    Even though thereís free movement I think thatís the point that they had to move to Germany, interestingly at the time there was approx 200 of us working there with 22 different nationalities.


    I think he was referring to the fact that his mother had retired, payed into the system but was worse off than most coming across (in their eyes)
    People were moving there before the immigration crisis though. The sad thing about Italy is that it's a country with great potential, not a basket case like Greece. What's holding it back is not immigrants (although that's obviously not helping)

    I don't remember the exact figure but I think around a hundred politicians in the last parliament either had a criminal record or were under investigation. That is just staggering, if we had 5 it would be a major scandal.

    Again I don't remember the exact figures but it costs substantially more to build 1km of motorway in Italy than in Germany despite the fact the weather is better and manpower is cheaper. This is because of rampant corruption.

    Silvio Berlusconi used 20 years of government (and parliamentary immunity) purely to make his businesses richer and stay out of prison. You can stand up on Italian TV and say that he paid the Sicilian mafia via an intermediary, and he can't sue you because it's written in court sentences.

    It's corruption that meant your friends had to go to Germany to find work, and it's corruption that people were voting to get rid of with M5S.

  8. #28
    The demographic chart of Italy is quite interesting. Like Brexit, most of the country has opted for anti establishment and the national stance is rising. Like it or lump it, national realisation has surged massively across Europe. The EU has taken the piss out of so many, for too long.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng...nzi-berlusconi

    (used the Guardian, as the denialists don't believe any other rag)

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    The demographic chart of Italy is quite interesting. Like Brexit, most of the country has opted for anti establishment and the national stance is rising. Like it or lump it, national realisation has surged massively across Europe. The EU has taken the piss out of so many, for too long.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng...nzi-berlusconi

    (used the Guardian, as the denialists don't believe any other rag)
    I'm guessing that the real reason you actually used the Guardian is because your newspaper of choice doesn't publish in depth analysis and demographic breakdowns, but ok let's pretend the Express has published its considered analysis and you just chose to link to the Guardian instead.

    As regards the rest, how are you linking this to the EU? I know you tried it with their referendum a year or so ago, which had nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, and this has a bit more to do with the EU than that did, but what conclusions are you drawing and why?

    In your own words please, without copying and pasting or linking to YouTube.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by drillerpie View Post
    I'm guessing that the real reason you actually used the Guardian is because your newspaper of choice doesn't publish in depth analysis and demographic breakdowns, but ok let's pretend the Express has published its considered analysis and you just chose to link to the Guardian instead.

    As regards the rest, how are you linking this to the EU? I know you tried it with their referendum a year or so ago, which had nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, and this has a bit more to do with the EU than that did, but what conclusions are you drawing and why?

    In your own words please, without copying and pasting or linking to YouTube.
    Don't hold your breath.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Mapperleypie View Post
    Don't hold your breath.
    OK, firstly lets look at Italian politic election. It is like a lot of Europe (Germany good example) of coalition governments. No one power seems to dominate and so a government is formed by alliance. That does not necessarily mean the most popular party gets a place of power, as you well know. My point was that there has been a massive rise in National and populist opposition. They need to stop being prima donas and do the same thing. It is the EU's worst nightmare.

    But why the rise?
    1. Easy- immigration. As of 2017, there was 5 million foreign nationals in Italy (1 million Romanians-10% Roma). Not including the invasion from North Africa. The demographic map of Italy, showing 5 star domination, includes the bulk of the country. I'd wager this pisses most Italians off, as it does here.
    The EU has come under constant fire from Italian officials, due to the lack of help from the EU. Both in redistribution and stopping the influx. The talk now is of with holding EU payments, whilst Eastern bloc countries, continue to resist having migrants forced on them( don't hold your breath). So yes, the EU has caused pain here.

    2. Austerity- Euro
    The loss of enthusiasm started more than a decade ago, when the lira was replaced with the single currency and prices doubled overnight. Then, more recently, Italy’s triple-dip recession and slow recovery — blamed by some on EU-imposed austerity.
    Resultant 50% unemployment for the under 25's and a coughing national debt adds to the woe. The mayor of Florence once blasted Merkel.
    Mr Renzi told Ms Merkel, that “you cannot say you are giving your blood to Europe” as he lamented double standards that favored German interests to the detriment of Italy on EU regulatory policy.


    It's a mess and not confined to Italy. The EU has caused pain across southern Europe and the rise in opposition is there to see. Of course that is my observation only. I am not anti Europe, but I am anti EU.
    Return to the Common Market, bin this political Union crap and folks across Europe will be happier.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    OK, firstly lets look at Italian politic election. It is like a lot of Europe (Germany good example) of coalition governments. No one power seems to dominate and so a government is formed by alliance. That does not necessarily mean the most popular party gets a place of power, as you well know. My point was that there has been a massive rise in National and populist opposition. They need to stop being prima donas and do the same thing. It is the EU's worst nightmare.

    But why the rise?
    1. Easy- immigration. As of 2017, there was 5 million foreign nationals in Italy (1 million Romanians-10% Roma). Not including the invasion from North Africa. The demographic map of Italy, showing 5 star domination, includes the bulk of the country. I'd wager this pisses most Italians off, as it does here.
    The EU has come under constant fire from Italian officials, due to the lack of help from the EU. Both in redistribution and stopping the influx. The talk now is of with holding EU payments, whilst Eastern bloc countries, continue to resist having migrants forced on them( don't hold your breath). So yes, the EU has caused pain here.

    2. Austerity- Euro
    The loss of enthusiasm started more than a decade ago, when the lira was replaced with the single currency and prices doubled overnight. Then, more recently, Italy’s triple-dip recession and slow recovery — blamed by some on EU-imposed austerity.
    Resultant 50% unemployment for the under 25's and a coughing national debt adds to the woe. The mayor of Florence once blasted Merkel.
    Mr Renzi told Ms Merkel, that “you cannot say you are giving your blood to Europe” as he lamented double standards that favored German interests to the detriment of Italy on EU regulatory policy.


    It's a mess and not confined to Italy. The EU has caused pain across southern Europe and the rise in opposition is there to see. Of course that is my observation only. I am not anti Europe, but I am anti EU.
    Return to the Common Market, bin this political Union crap and folks across Europe will be happier.
    But how are you connecting Sunday's vote to the EU?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    OK, firstly lets look at Italian politic election. It is like a lot of Europe (Germany good example) of coalition governments. No one power seems to dominate and so a government is formed by alliance. That does not necessarily mean the most popular party gets a place of power, as you well know. My point was that there has been a massive rise in National and populist opposition. They need to stop being prima donas and do the same thing. It is the EU's worst nightmare.

    But why the rise?
    1. Easy- immigration. As of 2017, there was 5 million foreign nationals in Italy (1 million Romanians-10% Roma). Not including the invasion from North Africa. The demographic map of Italy, showing 5 star domination, includes the bulk of the country. I'd wager this pisses most Italians off, as it does here.
    The EU has come under constant fire from Italian officials, due to the lack of help from the EU. Both in redistribution and stopping the influx. The talk now is of with holding EU payments, whilst Eastern bloc countries, continue to resist having migrants forced on them( don't hold your breath). So yes, the EU has caused pain here.

    2. Austerity- Euro
    The loss of enthusiasm started more than a decade ago, when the lira was replaced with the single currency and prices doubled overnight. Then, more recently, Italy’s triple-dip recession and slow recovery — blamed by some on EU-imposed austerity.
    Resultant 50% unemployment for the under 25's and a coughing national debt adds to the woe. The mayor of Florence once blasted Merkel.
    Mr Renzi told Ms Merkel, that “you cannot say you are giving your blood to Europe” as he lamented double standards that favored German interests to the detriment of Italy on EU regulatory policy.


    It's a mess and not confined to Italy. The EU has caused pain across southern Europe and the rise in opposition is there to see. Of course that is my observation only. I am not anti Europe, but I am anti EU.
    Return to the Common Market, bin this political Union crap and folks across Europe will be happier.
    Incidentally, point 2 copied and pasted from the Financial Times.

  14. #34
    Here's an article from today's paper written by a M5S candidate. It confirms everything I've said in the last few days - namely that M5S doesn't want to take Italy out of the EU, (in fact its share of the vote increased dramatically as a result of backtracking on its idea for a referendum on pulling out of the Eurozone), and that its main attraction for voters was the promise to tackle corruption.

    Hopefully now the usual suspects will realise that I might just actually know what I'm talking about, and stop trying to argue based on what they've read on Breitbart or Nigel Farage's Facebook page.




    The Five Star Movement (M5S) secured a clearcut victory in Italy’s parliamentary elections, winning more than 30% of the vote nationwide and cementing its position as the single most popular political force in Italy. Meanwhile, the mainstream centre-left and centre-right political parties tanked: Matteo Renzi’s Democratic party only garnered 19% of the vote, while Silvio Berlusconi’s Forza Italia scored a meagre 14%.

    Coalition politics, however, stands in the way of a Five Star government. Berlusconi can count on the support of several rightwing parties, most prominently the anti-immigrant and anti-EU League, which received 18% of the vote. All together the four parties forming the rightwing coalition obtained 36%. The road ahead remains uncertain and the spectre of a hung parliament now looms over Italy.

    What we know for sure is that the new parliament will hold its first session on 23 March. After the election of the presidents of the two chambers of parliament, “consultations” for the formation of a new government will formally begin. Following customary procedure, the Italian president, Sergio Mattarella, will then bestow an “exploratory” appointment upon a prime minister-designate, who will in turn present a proposed list of cabinet appointments. The chambers of parliament will vote upon the cabinet as a whole. In both chambers, a majority is required.


    For the time being it is still unclear whether Mattarella will task Five Star’s Luigi Di Maio with forming a new government. However, given that the Five Star Movement received almost a third of all votes and is by far the single most popular political force in Italy, any other choice would be undemocratic and would most likely undermine any prospect for economic or political renewal.

    The movement was born in 2009 out of popular anger and disillusionment with the established political parties, and today it may represent Italy’s best chance to curb decades of corruption and waste in the public sector and deliver much-needed economic reforms. Far from advocating an exit from the eurozone, the movement calls for greater cooperation with Brussels to address common challenges to the EU, from the migrant and refugee crisis to the phasing out of fossil fuels and the development of renewable energy.

    The Five Star Movement has also been deeply misunderstood, at home and abroad, partly as a result of biased media coverage in Italy. In its last report, Freedom House ranked Italy as only “partly free” in terms of freedom of the press, lamenting the “heavy concentration of media ownership” – a clear reference to Berlusconi’s media empire – and “political influence on the public broadcaster” (the centre-left has traditionally dominated public television channels). Thus, on the national media scene the Five Star Movement has been constantly under attack. The international press should not fall for the often misleading and partisan coverage of Italian politics that dominates domestic media sources.


    Meanwhile, the rightwing coalition, which used to function under the strict hegemony of Berlusconi, is bound to be plagued by internal rivalries. Indeed, the 81-year-old is now dependent on the electoral strength of the League, which for the first time in its history has emerged as the strongest party within the coalition.

    Berlusconi and his allies have already governed Italy three times in the past two decades, most recently from 2008 to 2011. When in power, his governments failed to reduce political waste and mismanagement, and were ultimately unable to kickstart the Italian economy. There is little hope that this time would be any different. In fact, it could be worse, given that the right as a whole is today hostage to the League, whose aggressive anti-immigrant leader, Matteo Salvini, is angling for greater influence.

    The Italian president should have no doubt when deciding who should form the next government. The Five Star Movement not only received more votes than any other political force, it also represents a more promising, dependable and reasonable choice than Berlusconi’s shaky coalition.

    • Federico Manfredi Firmian works at the faculty of political science at Sciences Po in Paris. He was a Five Star Movement candidate in the 2018 general election

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...omy-berlusconi

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by drillerpie View Post
    Here's an article from today's paper written by a M5S candidate. It confirms everything I've said in the last few days - namely that M5S doesn't want to take Italy out of the EU, (in fact its share of the vote increased dramatically as a result of backtracking on its idea for a referendum on pulling out of the Eurozone), and that its main attraction for voters was the promise to tackle corruption.

    Hopefully now the usual suspects will realise that I might just actually know what I'm talking about, and stop trying to argue based on what they've read on Breitbart or Nigel Farage's Facebook page.




    The Five Star Movement (M5S) secured a clearcut victory in Italy’s parliamentary elections, winning more than 30% of the vote nationwide and cementing its position as the single most popular political force in Italy. Meanwhile, the mainstream centre-left and centre-right political parties tanked: Matteo Renzi’s Democratic party only garnered 19% of the vote, while Silvio Berlusconi’s Forza Italia scored a meagre 14%.

    Coalition politics, however, stands in the way of a Five Star government. Berlusconi can count on the support of several rightwing parties, most prominently the anti-immigrant and anti-EU League, which received 18% of the vote. All together the four parties forming the rightwing coalition obtained 36%. The road ahead remains uncertain and the spectre of a hung parliament now looms over Italy.

    What we know for sure is that the new parliament will hold its first session on 23 March. After the election of the presidents of the two chambers of parliament, “consultations” for the formation of a new government will formally begin. Following customary procedure, the Italian president, Sergio Mattarella, will then bestow an “exploratory” appointment upon a prime minister-designate, who will in turn present a proposed list of cabinet appointments. The chambers of parliament will vote upon the cabinet as a whole. In both chambers, a majority is required.


    For the time being it is still unclear whether Mattarella will task Five Star’s Luigi Di Maio with forming a new government. However, given that the Five Star Movement received almost a third of all votes and is by far the single most popular political force in Italy, any other choice would be undemocratic and would most likely undermine any prospect for economic or political renewal.

    The movement was born in 2009 out of popular anger and disillusionment with the established political parties, and today it may represent Italy’s best chance to curb decades of corruption and waste in the public sector and deliver much-needed economic reforms. Far from advocating an exit from the eurozone, the movement calls for greater cooperation with Brussels to address common challenges to the EU, from the migrant and refugee crisis to the phasing out of fossil fuels and the development of renewable energy.

    The Five Star Movement has also been deeply misunderstood, at home and abroad, partly as a result of biased media coverage in Italy. In its last report, Freedom House ranked Italy as only “partly free” in terms of freedom of the press, lamenting the “heavy concentration of media ownership” – a clear reference to Berlusconi’s media empire – and “political influence on the public broadcaster” (the centre-left has traditionally dominated public television channels). Thus, on the national media scene the Five Star Movement has been constantly under attack. The international press should not fall for the often misleading and partisan coverage of Italian politics that dominates domestic media sources.


    Meanwhile, the rightwing coalition, which used to function under the strict hegemony of Berlusconi, is bound to be plagued by internal rivalries. Indeed, the 81-year-old is now dependent on the electoral strength of the League, which for the first time in its history has emerged as the strongest party within the coalition.

    Berlusconi and his allies have already governed Italy three times in the past two decades, most recently from 2008 to 2011. When in power, his governments failed to reduce political waste and mismanagement, and were ultimately unable to kickstart the Italian economy. There is little hope that this time would be any different. In fact, it could be worse, given that the right as a whole is today hostage to the League, whose aggressive anti-immigrant leader, Matteo Salvini, is angling for greater influence.

    The Italian president should have no doubt when deciding who should form the next government. The Five Star Movement not only received more votes than any other political force, it also represents a more promising, dependable and reasonable choice than Berlusconi’s shaky coalition.

    • Federico Manfredi Firmian works at the faculty of political science at Sciences Po in Paris. He was a Five Star Movement candidate in the 2018 general election

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...omy-berlusconi
    I note that you are using the Guardian.....so I will do the same.

    Yesterday.....Guardian quote...."But the fact that the insurgent Five Star Movement finished as the country’s biggest party by far, and the anti-immigration La Lega as the strongest force on the right, raises questions not just about Italy’s capacity to pursue domestic reforms, but also its inclination to play any part in planned closer EU and eurozone integration".

    .....and again from the Guardian yesterday.....quote......"Italy’s angry, fed-up voters rejected the path of economic modernisation and broad eurozone compliance followed by successive Italian governments since the financial and economic crisis, opting instead for parties whose generous campaign promises – a flat tax rate, a universal income, early retirement – would set them on a collision course with Europe’s budget constraints".

    Now, either the Guardian have turned bipolar, or else the Italian voters have had enough of the EU and are voting for some serious change

    Full Guardian article.....https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-angela-merkel

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarquinbeech View Post
    I note that you are using the Guardian.....so I will do the same.

    Yesterday.....Guardian quote...."But the fact that the insurgent Five Star Movement finished as the country’s biggest party by far, and the anti-immigration La Lega as the strongest force on the right, raises questions not just about Italy’s capacity to pursue domestic reforms, but also its inclination to play any part in planned closer EU and eurozone integration".

    .....and again from the Guardian yesterday.....quote......"Italy’s angry, fed-up voters rejected the path of economic modernisation and broad eurozone compliance followed by successive Italian governments since the financial and economic crisis, opting instead for parties whose generous campaign promises – a flat tax rate, a universal income, early retirement – would set them on a collision course with Europe’s budget constraints".

    Now, either the Guardian have turned bipolar, or else the Italian voters have had enough of the EU and are voting for some serious change

    Full Guardian article.....https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-angela-merkel
    It goes to show which ever side of the political fence you sit you interpret it the way that suits your argument

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=drillerpie;38820996]Here's an article from today's paper written by a M5S candidate. It confirms everything I've said in the last few days - namely that M5S doesn't want to take Italy out of the EU, (in fact its share of the vote increased dramatically as a result of backtracking on its idea for a referendum on pulling out of the Eurozone), and that its main attraction for voters was the promise to tackle corruption.

    Hopefully now the usual suspects will realise that I might just actually know what I'm talking about, and stop trying to argue based on what they've read on Breitbart or Nigel Farage's Facebook page.


    Wow!!! The ego has landed

  18. #38
    [QUOTE=i961pie;38821739]
    Quote Originally Posted by drillerpie View Post
    Here's an article from today's paper written by a M5S candidate. It confirms everything I've said in the last few days - namely that M5S doesn't want to take Italy out of the EU, (in fact its share of the vote increased dramatically as a result of backtracking on its idea for a referendum on pulling out of the Eurozone), and that its main attraction for voters was the promise to tackle corruption.

    Hopefully now the usual suspects will realise that I might just actually know what I'm talking about, and stop trying to argue based on what they've read on Breitbart or Nigel Farage's Facebook page.


    Wow!!! The ego has landed
    Great film "the ego has landed".....almost as good as "the Usual Suspects"

    "One Flew over the Crazies Nest" anyone?

  19. #39

    Wow!!! The ego has landed
    I'd say there's more ego involved in being wrong and not admitting it than in being right and pointing out that you're right.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by tarquinbeech View Post
    I note that you are using the Guardian.....so I will do the same.

    Yesterday.....Guardian quote...."But the fact that the insurgent Five Star Movement finished as the country’s biggest party by far, and the anti-immigration La Lega as the strongest force on the right, raises questions not just about Italy’s capacity to pursue domestic reforms, but also its inclination to play any part in planned closer EU and eurozone integration".

    .....and again from the Guardian yesterday.....quote......"Italy’s angry, fed-up voters rejected the path of economic modernisation and broad eurozone compliance followed by successive Italian governments since the financial and economic crisis, opting instead for parties whose generous campaign promises – a flat tax rate, a universal income, early retirement – would set them on a collision course with Europe’s budget constraints".

    Now, either the Guardian have turned bipolar, or else the Italian voters have had enough of the EU and are voting for some serious change

    Full Guardian article.....https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-angela-merkel
    The article I quoted was in the Guardian but that's irrelevant, it was written by a representative of M5S to explain his parties position, that they have no intention of leaving the EU. Straight from the horse's mouth.

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