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Thread: OT Italian election

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mapperleypie View Post
    Don't hold your breath.
    OK, firstly lets look at Italian politic election. It is like a lot of Europe (Germany good example) of coalition governments. No one power seems to dominate and so a government is formed by alliance. That does not necessarily mean the most popular party gets a place of power, as you well know. My point was that there has been a massive rise in National and populist opposition. They need to stop being prima donas and do the same thing. It is the EU's worst nightmare.

    But why the rise?
    1. Easy- immigration. As of 2017, there was 5 million foreign nationals in Italy (1 million Romanians-10% Roma). Not including the invasion from North Africa. The demographic map of Italy, showing 5 star domination, includes the bulk of the country. I'd wager this pisses most Italians off, as it does here.
    The EU has come under constant fire from Italian officials, due to the lack of help from the EU. Both in redistribution and stopping the influx. The talk now is of with holding EU payments, whilst Eastern bloc countries, continue to resist having migrants forced on them( don't hold your breath). So yes, the EU has caused pain here.

    2. Austerity- Euro
    The loss of enthusiasm started more than a decade ago, when the lira was replaced with the single currency and prices doubled overnight. Then, more recently, Italy’s triple-dip recession and slow recovery — blamed by some on EU-imposed austerity.
    Resultant 50% unemployment for the under 25's and a coughing national debt adds to the woe. The mayor of Florence once blasted Merkel.
    Mr Renzi told Ms Merkel, that “you cannot say you are giving your blood to Europe” as he lamented double standards that favored German interests to the detriment of Italy on EU regulatory policy.


    It's a mess and not confined to Italy. The EU has caused pain across southern Europe and the rise in opposition is there to see. Of course that is my observation only. I am not anti Europe, but I am anti EU.
    Return to the Common Market, bin this political Union crap and folks across Europe will be happier.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    OK, firstly lets look at Italian politic election. It is like a lot of Europe (Germany good example) of coalition governments. No one power seems to dominate and so a government is formed by alliance. That does not necessarily mean the most popular party gets a place of power, as you well know. My point was that there has been a massive rise in National and populist opposition. They need to stop being prima donas and do the same thing. It is the EU's worst nightmare.

    But why the rise?
    1. Easy- immigration. As of 2017, there was 5 million foreign nationals in Italy (1 million Romanians-10% Roma). Not including the invasion from North Africa. The demographic map of Italy, showing 5 star domination, includes the bulk of the country. I'd wager this pisses most Italians off, as it does here.
    The EU has come under constant fire from Italian officials, due to the lack of help from the EU. Both in redistribution and stopping the influx. The talk now is of with holding EU payments, whilst Eastern bloc countries, continue to resist having migrants forced on them( don't hold your breath). So yes, the EU has caused pain here.

    2. Austerity- Euro
    The loss of enthusiasm started more than a decade ago, when the lira was replaced with the single currency and prices doubled overnight. Then, more recently, Italy’s triple-dip recession and slow recovery — blamed by some on EU-imposed austerity.
    Resultant 50% unemployment for the under 25's and a coughing national debt adds to the woe. The mayor of Florence once blasted Merkel.
    Mr Renzi told Ms Merkel, that “you cannot say you are giving your blood to Europe” as he lamented double standards that favored German interests to the detriment of Italy on EU regulatory policy.


    It's a mess and not confined to Italy. The EU has caused pain across southern Europe and the rise in opposition is there to see. Of course that is my observation only. I am not anti Europe, but I am anti EU.
    Return to the Common Market, bin this political Union crap and folks across Europe will be happier.
    But how are you connecting Sunday's vote to the EU?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    OK, firstly lets look at Italian politic election. It is like a lot of Europe (Germany good example) of coalition governments. No one power seems to dominate and so a government is formed by alliance. That does not necessarily mean the most popular party gets a place of power, as you well know. My point was that there has been a massive rise in National and populist opposition. They need to stop being prima donas and do the same thing. It is the EU's worst nightmare.

    But why the rise?
    1. Easy- immigration. As of 2017, there was 5 million foreign nationals in Italy (1 million Romanians-10% Roma). Not including the invasion from North Africa. The demographic map of Italy, showing 5 star domination, includes the bulk of the country. I'd wager this pisses most Italians off, as it does here.
    The EU has come under constant fire from Italian officials, due to the lack of help from the EU. Both in redistribution and stopping the influx. The talk now is of with holding EU payments, whilst Eastern bloc countries, continue to resist having migrants forced on them( don't hold your breath). So yes, the EU has caused pain here.

    2. Austerity- Euro
    The loss of enthusiasm started more than a decade ago, when the lira was replaced with the single currency and prices doubled overnight. Then, more recently, Italy’s triple-dip recession and slow recovery — blamed by some on EU-imposed austerity.
    Resultant 50% unemployment for the under 25's and a coughing national debt adds to the woe. The mayor of Florence once blasted Merkel.
    Mr Renzi told Ms Merkel, that “you cannot say you are giving your blood to Europe” as he lamented double standards that favored German interests to the detriment of Italy on EU regulatory policy.


    It's a mess and not confined to Italy. The EU has caused pain across southern Europe and the rise in opposition is there to see. Of course that is my observation only. I am not anti Europe, but I am anti EU.
    Return to the Common Market, bin this political Union crap and folks across Europe will be happier.
    Incidentally, point 2 copied and pasted from the Financial Times.

  4. #34
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    Here's an article from today's paper written by a M5S candidate. It confirms everything I've said in the last few days - namely that M5S doesn't want to take Italy out of the EU, (in fact its share of the vote increased dramatically as a result of backtracking on its idea for a referendum on pulling out of the Eurozone), and that its main attraction for voters was the promise to tackle corruption.

    Hopefully now the usual suspects will realise that I might just actually know what I'm talking about, and stop trying to argue based on what they've read on Breitbart or Nigel Farage's Facebook page.




    The Five Star Movement (M5S) secured a clearcut victory in Italy’s parliamentary elections, winning more than 30% of the vote nationwide and cementing its position as the single most popular political force in Italy. Meanwhile, the mainstream centre-left and centre-right political parties tanked: Matteo Renzi’s Democratic party only garnered 19% of the vote, while Silvio Berlusconi’s Forza Italia scored a meagre 14%.

    Coalition politics, however, stands in the way of a Five Star government. Berlusconi can count on the support of several rightwing parties, most prominently the anti-immigrant and anti-EU League, which received 18% of the vote. All together the four parties forming the rightwing coalition obtained 36%. The road ahead remains uncertain and the spectre of a hung parliament now looms over Italy.

    What we know for sure is that the new parliament will hold its first session on 23 March. After the election of the presidents of the two chambers of parliament, “consultations” for the formation of a new government will formally begin. Following customary procedure, the Italian president, Sergio Mattarella, will then bestow an “exploratory” appointment upon a prime minister-designate, who will in turn present a proposed list of cabinet appointments. The chambers of parliament will vote upon the cabinet as a whole. In both chambers, a majority is required.


    For the time being it is still unclear whether Mattarella will task Five Star’s Luigi Di Maio with forming a new government. However, given that the Five Star Movement received almost a third of all votes and is by far the single most popular political force in Italy, any other choice would be undemocratic and would most likely undermine any prospect for economic or political renewal.

    The movement was born in 2009 out of popular anger and disillusionment with the established political parties, and today it may represent Italy’s best chance to curb decades of corruption and waste in the public sector and deliver much-needed economic reforms. Far from advocating an exit from the eurozone, the movement calls for greater cooperation with Brussels to address common challenges to the EU, from the migrant and refugee crisis to the phasing out of fossil fuels and the development of renewable energy.

    The Five Star Movement has also been deeply misunderstood, at home and abroad, partly as a result of biased media coverage in Italy. In its last report, Freedom House ranked Italy as only “partly free” in terms of freedom of the press, lamenting the “heavy concentration of media ownership” – a clear reference to Berlusconi’s media empire – and “political influence on the public broadcaster” (the centre-left has traditionally dominated public television channels). Thus, on the national media scene the Five Star Movement has been constantly under attack. The international press should not fall for the often misleading and partisan coverage of Italian politics that dominates domestic media sources.


    Meanwhile, the rightwing coalition, which used to function under the strict hegemony of Berlusconi, is bound to be plagued by internal rivalries. Indeed, the 81-year-old is now dependent on the electoral strength of the League, which for the first time in its history has emerged as the strongest party within the coalition.

    Berlusconi and his allies have already governed Italy three times in the past two decades, most recently from 2008 to 2011. When in power, his governments failed to reduce political waste and mismanagement, and were ultimately unable to kickstart the Italian economy. There is little hope that this time would be any different. In fact, it could be worse, given that the right as a whole is today hostage to the League, whose aggressive anti-immigrant leader, Matteo Salvini, is angling for greater influence.

    The Italian president should have no doubt when deciding who should form the next government. The Five Star Movement not only received more votes than any other political force, it also represents a more promising, dependable and reasonable choice than Berlusconi’s shaky coalition.

    • Federico Manfredi Firmian works at the faculty of political science at Sciences Po in Paris. He was a Five Star Movement candidate in the 2018 general election

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...omy-berlusconi

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by drillerpie View Post
    Here's an article from today's paper written by a M5S candidate. It confirms everything I've said in the last few days - namely that M5S doesn't want to take Italy out of the EU, (in fact its share of the vote increased dramatically as a result of backtracking on its idea for a referendum on pulling out of the Eurozone), and that its main attraction for voters was the promise to tackle corruption.

    Hopefully now the usual suspects will realise that I might just actually know what I'm talking about, and stop trying to argue based on what they've read on Breitbart or Nigel Farage's Facebook page.




    The Five Star Movement (M5S) secured a clearcut victory in Italy’s parliamentary elections, winning more than 30% of the vote nationwide and cementing its position as the single most popular political force in Italy. Meanwhile, the mainstream centre-left and centre-right political parties tanked: Matteo Renzi’s Democratic party only garnered 19% of the vote, while Silvio Berlusconi’s Forza Italia scored a meagre 14%.

    Coalition politics, however, stands in the way of a Five Star government. Berlusconi can count on the support of several rightwing parties, most prominently the anti-immigrant and anti-EU League, which received 18% of the vote. All together the four parties forming the rightwing coalition obtained 36%. The road ahead remains uncertain and the spectre of a hung parliament now looms over Italy.

    What we know for sure is that the new parliament will hold its first session on 23 March. After the election of the presidents of the two chambers of parliament, “consultations” for the formation of a new government will formally begin. Following customary procedure, the Italian president, Sergio Mattarella, will then bestow an “exploratory” appointment upon a prime minister-designate, who will in turn present a proposed list of cabinet appointments. The chambers of parliament will vote upon the cabinet as a whole. In both chambers, a majority is required.


    For the time being it is still unclear whether Mattarella will task Five Star’s Luigi Di Maio with forming a new government. However, given that the Five Star Movement received almost a third of all votes and is by far the single most popular political force in Italy, any other choice would be undemocratic and would most likely undermine any prospect for economic or political renewal.

    The movement was born in 2009 out of popular anger and disillusionment with the established political parties, and today it may represent Italy’s best chance to curb decades of corruption and waste in the public sector and deliver much-needed economic reforms. Far from advocating an exit from the eurozone, the movement calls for greater cooperation with Brussels to address common challenges to the EU, from the migrant and refugee crisis to the phasing out of fossil fuels and the development of renewable energy.

    The Five Star Movement has also been deeply misunderstood, at home and abroad, partly as a result of biased media coverage in Italy. In its last report, Freedom House ranked Italy as only “partly free” in terms of freedom of the press, lamenting the “heavy concentration of media ownership” – a clear reference to Berlusconi’s media empire – and “political influence on the public broadcaster” (the centre-left has traditionally dominated public television channels). Thus, on the national media scene the Five Star Movement has been constantly under attack. The international press should not fall for the often misleading and partisan coverage of Italian politics that dominates domestic media sources.


    Meanwhile, the rightwing coalition, which used to function under the strict hegemony of Berlusconi, is bound to be plagued by internal rivalries. Indeed, the 81-year-old is now dependent on the electoral strength of the League, which for the first time in its history has emerged as the strongest party within the coalition.

    Berlusconi and his allies have already governed Italy three times in the past two decades, most recently from 2008 to 2011. When in power, his governments failed to reduce political waste and mismanagement, and were ultimately unable to kickstart the Italian economy. There is little hope that this time would be any different. In fact, it could be worse, given that the right as a whole is today hostage to the League, whose aggressive anti-immigrant leader, Matteo Salvini, is angling for greater influence.

    The Italian president should have no doubt when deciding who should form the next government. The Five Star Movement not only received more votes than any other political force, it also represents a more promising, dependable and reasonable choice than Berlusconi’s shaky coalition.

    • Federico Manfredi Firmian works at the faculty of political science at Sciences Po in Paris. He was a Five Star Movement candidate in the 2018 general election

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...omy-berlusconi
    I note that you are using the Guardian.....so I will do the same.

    Yesterday.....Guardian quote...."But the fact that the insurgent Five Star Movement finished as the country’s biggest party by far, and the anti-immigration La Lega as the strongest force on the right, raises questions not just about Italy’s capacity to pursue domestic reforms, but also its inclination to play any part in planned closer EU and eurozone integration".

    .....and again from the Guardian yesterday.....quote......"Italy’s angry, fed-up voters rejected the path of economic modernisation and broad eurozone compliance followed by successive Italian governments since the financial and economic crisis, opting instead for parties whose generous campaign promises – a flat tax rate, a universal income, early retirement – would set them on a collision course with Europe’s budget constraints".

    Now, either the Guardian have turned bipolar, or else the Italian voters have had enough of the EU and are voting for some serious change

    Full Guardian article.....https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-angela-merkel

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarquinbeech View Post
    I note that you are using the Guardian.....so I will do the same.

    Yesterday.....Guardian quote...."But the fact that the insurgent Five Star Movement finished as the country’s biggest party by far, and the anti-immigration La Lega as the strongest force on the right, raises questions not just about Italy’s capacity to pursue domestic reforms, but also its inclination to play any part in planned closer EU and eurozone integration".

    .....and again from the Guardian yesterday.....quote......"Italy’s angry, fed-up voters rejected the path of economic modernisation and broad eurozone compliance followed by successive Italian governments since the financial and economic crisis, opting instead for parties whose generous campaign promises – a flat tax rate, a universal income, early retirement – would set them on a collision course with Europe’s budget constraints".

    Now, either the Guardian have turned bipolar, or else the Italian voters have had enough of the EU and are voting for some serious change

    Full Guardian article.....https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-angela-merkel
    It goes to show which ever side of the political fence you sit you interpret it the way that suits your argument

  7. #37
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    [QUOTE=drillerpie;38820996]Here's an article from today's paper written by a M5S candidate. It confirms everything I've said in the last few days - namely that M5S doesn't want to take Italy out of the EU, (in fact its share of the vote increased dramatically as a result of backtracking on its idea for a referendum on pulling out of the Eurozone), and that its main attraction for voters was the promise to tackle corruption.

    Hopefully now the usual suspects will realise that I might just actually know what I'm talking about, and stop trying to argue based on what they've read on Breitbart or Nigel Farage's Facebook page.


    Wow!!! The ego has landed

  8. #38
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    [QUOTE=i961pie;38821739]
    Quote Originally Posted by drillerpie View Post
    Here's an article from today's paper written by a M5S candidate. It confirms everything I've said in the last few days - namely that M5S doesn't want to take Italy out of the EU, (in fact its share of the vote increased dramatically as a result of backtracking on its idea for a referendum on pulling out of the Eurozone), and that its main attraction for voters was the promise to tackle corruption.

    Hopefully now the usual suspects will realise that I might just actually know what I'm talking about, and stop trying to argue based on what they've read on Breitbart or Nigel Farage's Facebook page.


    Wow!!! The ego has landed
    Great film "the ego has landed".....almost as good as "the Usual Suspects"

    "One Flew over the Crazies Nest" anyone?

  9. #39
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    Wow!!! The ego has landed
    I'd say there's more ego involved in being wrong and not admitting it than in being right and pointing out that you're right.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarquinbeech View Post
    I note that you are using the Guardian.....so I will do the same.

    Yesterday.....Guardian quote...."But the fact that the insurgent Five Star Movement finished as the country’s biggest party by far, and the anti-immigration La Lega as the strongest force on the right, raises questions not just about Italy’s capacity to pursue domestic reforms, but also its inclination to play any part in planned closer EU and eurozone integration".

    .....and again from the Guardian yesterday.....quote......"Italy’s angry, fed-up voters rejected the path of economic modernisation and broad eurozone compliance followed by successive Italian governments since the financial and economic crisis, opting instead for parties whose generous campaign promises – a flat tax rate, a universal income, early retirement – would set them on a collision course with Europe’s budget constraints".

    Now, either the Guardian have turned bipolar, or else the Italian voters have had enough of the EU and are voting for some serious change

    Full Guardian article.....https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-angela-merkel
    The article I quoted was in the Guardian but that's irrelevant, it was written by a representative of M5S to explain his parties position, that they have no intention of leaving the EU. Straight from the horse's mouth.

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