J Rod

[sinkov]

It’s a Scottish verdict. Not proven doesn’t mean he didn’t do it so it doesn’t clear him, just says the evidence is inconclusive.

You're innocent until proven guilty, he wasn't proven guilty so he is innocent of making any racist remarks to that **** Bong.

[oldcolner]

You're innocent until proven guilty, he wasn't proven guilty so he is innocent of making any racist remarks to that **** Bong.

The result of the "not proven" verdict is an acquittal used when the judge or jury does not have enough evidence to convict but is not sufficiently convinced of the accused person's innocence to bring in a "not guilty" verdict.
Essentially, the judge or jury is unconvinced that the suspect is innocent, but guilt has not been proven "beyond reasonable doubt". There is no difference between the legal effects of a "not guilty" and "not proven" verdict, which both acquit the defendant.

Not proven also means the accuser is not wrong. The verdict is one often used in rape cases and says the jury didn’t disbelieve them but there was no independent corroboration, and that was the case here. It doesn’t say he was innocent.

[sinkov]

It doesn’t say he was innocent.

It doesn't have to say he's innocent OC, there is a presumption of innocence in this country. We are all innocent until proven guilty, as is Jay. The charge is unproven, and Jay remains innocent until proven guilty.

I'd like to see Bong on a charge of racism, he accused Jay of saying something racist towards him simply because he was white, to attribute an action to someone purely on the basis of the colour of their skin is racism.

[oldcolner]

It doesn't have to say he's innocent OC, there is a presumption of innocence in this country. We are all innocent until proven guilty, as is Jay. The charge is unproven, and Jay remains innocent until proven guilty.

I'd like to see Bong on a charge of racism, he accused Jay of saying something racist towards him simply because he was white, to attribute an action to someone purely on the basis of the colour of their skin is racism.

Sinkov
The verdict says Bong was not wrong and may be correct. Their problem was Jay had his hand in front of his mouth no lip readers could say independently what was said. Jay admitted saying Your breath f****** stinks and he held his nose. He now regrets saying that.

The FA said: “The FA wishes to stress there has been no suggestion by any party involved in this case that this was a malicious or fabricated complaint.”
So how could Bong be charged for anything?

You say in this country
In Scotland where it originates not proven is not proof of innocence, but that guilt could not be shown beyond reasonable doubt.

Jay is not satisfied and wants to take it further so he recognises he hasn’t been proved innocent.
I’m not sure what his aim in doing that would be maybe to see Gaetan charged like you.
I think his lawyers will advise him not to do that or sue him, unless there is proof somewhere else

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/footb...remier-league/

[sinkov]

Of course the FA say that OC, they're not going to even go close to casting any doubt on the evidence of a black player, they want to get this behind them, move along nothing to see here. You'd have to read what Bong said in court to understand why I say Bong was racist, Jay obviously feels the same, which is why he wants to take it further. He basically said Jay was white and abusing a black player, thus what he said must have been racist.
Not sure why you're talking about 'proof of innocence', I could well be wrong, but I didn't think this concept existed in our legal system.

[oldcolner]

I don’t think it does Sinkov except in Scotland and of course this wasn’t a court case anyway. I’m giving the Scottish angle perhaps, but there is a difference. It works well for some such as rape cases where a not guilty verdict means the victim hasn’t been believed. Not proven implies they may have been believed but the defendant denied it and there was no way of proving beyond reasonable doubt.
In Jays case the two had different stories and others who provided evidence didn’t prove either was correct. So either may be correct, maybe Bong has a hearing problem. In the heat of the moment we all say things that we regret and can’t fully remember and we may all mishear. As I’m deaf in the higher ranges I often mishear.
I think Jay has got the right outcome and he should just let it go. He clearly did say and do some stupid things so he won’t look totally clean if he pushes this further.

[sinkov]

The problem for Jay OC is the accusation of racism, some things you can ignore, they're quickly forgotten, but racism sticks. The race card is a vile weapon, too easy to use and too frequently used imo, and Bong has played it against Jay. So I can understand why Jay, or anyone falsely accused of racism, would want to take it further and clear their name completely. Why should Bong be allowed just to walk away from maligning Jay with no consequences ?

Remember the John Terry case ? Terry abused Ferdinand, he called him a black cnut, Ferdinand may or may not be a cnut, but he is certainly black, but it was the black bit, the accurate adjective, that landed him in court. Racism trumps everything, Jay should take it as far as he can, or at least as far as he wants imo. Don't forget Jay has to train and play alongside black players, he doesn't want this hanging over him, is 'not proven' enough when you spend you your entire career in the company of black players ?

[oldcolner]

I guess his only recourse would be to a civil court for damages. That’s expensive, unlikely to succeed and takes a long time, so this would hang over his head for years.

[Altobelli]

Its expensive for the man on the street Colner, but for a top flight Footballer its Pidgeon feed and should be sought to clear his name.

[oldcolner]

Maybe but the downside is he is unlikely to win at the end of it, meanwhile any dirty linen will have been found and exposed to the public, so he could end up much worse off.
How if he’s asked have you ever taken drugs - he says no, then the papers Headline will be JRod denies taking drugs.
I know someone that happened to!