Not bad for Fizzy Players.......

[ghostrider]

See...you nearly make a good point! But Rafa has had more pressure if you relate it to doing a good job...he's got us improving...he's got a clear system and vision which is showing and did even when it wasn't working!

I don't believe Rafa has had anywhere near the pressure, seriously.
Rafa has been very fortunate that he was afforded messiah status which gave him massive lee way to get to this stage, because... argue it if you want... if this had been many other managers of lesser status, things would not be as rosy.

Pardew was ridiculous...for losing streaks, lack of a plan or coaching even when we finished 5th!

Yep, he certainly got some unwanted records and he certainly was not a top manager for us, throughout....but he was decent and that was my argument.
I thought he was unlucky with players as well. Players like Cabaye and what not being absolute gits.

I'm quite happy to argue a point...I also don't give a shyte if my opinion differs from others...but I don't choose my opinion JUST because it differs!
This is where I think you are stuck!

I don't. I choose my opinion because that's my opinion. I also tend to choose topics that garner interest and debate but it rarely puts me into any positive light due to amount of posts against various alternate posts to it, generally.

I was wrong about dummet. ...fair bit of that has to do with rafa though, no?

Dummett has been a scapegoat for long enough by fans, Rafa or not.

I had lost patience with perez...guess rafa knew what he was doing percavering, no?

Perez has been hit and miss for long enough, Rafa or not.

Thought diame was....you get my point! I've been proved wrong before and will again...

It's not about being proved wrong which is my argument with rafa and what not.
We all seen how dire Diame was.
We all seen how frustrating Perez was.
We all wanted more from a old fashioned left back and rarely appreciated his no nonsense defensive style because we wanted some attacking flair that he rarely unable to offer.

It doesn't make us wrong, it means we see things as they stand, good bad and indifferent and act on them.
In terms of Rafa, I wasn't wrong, I acted on what I was dealt which was bad to be but them indifferent and right now it's good.
Some refuse to see wrong in any of him and choose to grasp that he just knew it all right on. He simply did not but I understand many fans feel privileged to have what the media class as a top manager...so fair enough.

I respect someone that can accept being wrong...not someone that tries to twist things to fit their perception!

Everyone will twist things to suit an argument if others twist their side.
the issue again is about minority against majority, where majority can spin anything to fit a criteria whether it's right or wrong because the masses will simply back it up against a minority.

[ghostrider]

You disagree with 95% which, considering your supposed to support the same team as, and want the same as the rest of us, is strange.

How many players do you see me slagging off?
Even when I was miffed with Rafa earlier on I gave him his due on getting the team to graft but said graft was not enough and it was still dire.
I didn't slag the players off and in fact I championed many of them as being much better but played in roles that was against their normal stance and they lost form but started regaining it when it was all changed up with the addition of Kenedy and an allowance of him having the go ahead to express his talents, which was also given the the rest.
The end result was clear to see and I witnessed it all in that remarkable change, so I know what's acceptable or not and also what was head scratching in the extreme, of which many were of the same mind.

There's nothing strange about it. It's differing opinions based on what each person sees and who's willing to argue the toss.

[Andy1981_2]

Ghost... I know the conversation has moved slightly on from why Rafa is now getting it right, but I haven't had time to post until now. I just wanted to make this point: earlier in the season I defended Rafa from the 'negative footy' charge (not always, there were certainly games where he was guilty of that and I also called him on it), with my view being that we were creating chances but just not putting the ball in the back of the net. You say that what has changed recently is that Rafa has taken the players off the leash. For me, I just thought we were starting to put our chances away more (people like Ritchie and Ayoze are now actually getting goals, just as anecdotal cases). I just did a quick bit of Googling to see what the general picture was, and it looks like prior to January we were actually creating more chances - 12.14 shots per game - but scoring less than a goal per game (0.9 goals per game). We failed to score in 10 out of 21 of our games against PL teams. Since January though, what might be surprising to you is we've actually created less chances - 10.76 shots per game - but we have found goals much easier to come by. We're now scoring 1.23 goals per game, and have only failed to score in 2 of our 13 games against PL opposition (that's 15% of games vs just less than 50% of games earlier in the season). That suggests that we've become more clinical, rather than being more 'balanced' by going forward more instead of just defending. Maybe it seems like we're attacking more simply because we're seeing more goals these days?

[ghostrider]

Ghost... I know the conversation has moved slightly on from why Rafa is now getting it right, but I haven't had time to post until now. I just wanted to make this point: earlier in the season I defended Rafa from the 'negative footy' charge (not always, there were certainly games where he was guilty of that and I also called him on it), with my view being that we were creating chances but just not putting the ball in the back of the net. You say that what has changed recently is that Rafa has taken the players off the leash. For me, I just thought we were starting to put our chances away more (people like Ritchie and Ayoze are now actually getting goals, just as anecdotal cases). I just did a quick bit of Googling to see what the general picture was, and it looks like prior to January we were actually creating more chances - 12.14 shots per game - but scoring less than a goal per game (0.9 goals per game). We failed to score in 10 out of 21 of our games against PL teams. Since January though, what might be surprising to you is we've actually created less chances - 10.76 shots per game - but we have found goals much easier to come by. We're now scoring 1.23 goals per game, and have only failed to score in 2 of our 13 games against PL opposition (that's 15% of games vs just less than 50% of games earlier in the season). That suggests that we've become more clinical, rather than being more 'balanced' by going forward more instead of just defending. Maybe it seems like we're attacking more simply because we're seeing more goals these days?

Stats can tell you a lot of things that do not marry up with a visual appraisal of the game.
85% possession could mean 75% passing and going nowhere, yet the 15% opposition can lob a few balls into the danger area and score one. Game over.
Or it could be opposite of that.

However, the issue isn't about percentage or shots on target or shots off target...it's about 90 minutes plus of football in a give and take game for that 90 minutes plus.

Even if it ends 0-0 it can still be entertaining, as long as both teams are taking the game to each other...or if one team takes the game to another, it will be entertaining for their fans but dire as all hell for the opposition.

Rafa's issue was his refusal to change things when it was begging.
You see in most games we had a go in the first half but the second half was an enigma whether we were ahead, drawing or losing, because Rafa generally went cautious, regardless.

He didn't appear to have a plan B to have a go if we were losing or drawing.
He'd appear to have one where he would bring on pacey players or even Mitrovic at the time (Huddersfield springs to mind) yet will literally appear to be shutting up shop with a hit and hope for some kind of half hearted counter attacking when it was super safe to do so.
It beggared belief.

In that time and nearly each game, I was getting depressed. I was losing the will to get excited about any game.
Now and again we'd be treated to a good game where it became a head scratcher, because we come out worthy winners and entertained. (West Ham springs to mind).

Then we'd go right back into dire mode and yet rarely did I blame the players because I saw they were working to a plan and putting in the effort.
Rafa's plan was not working. It was dire football at that time.

People can by all means argue that he was getting things right.
In normal circumstances it can be argued that it takes time to get things to work and tinkering has to happen, plus the rough and the smooth and all that.
I accept that this can be the case...but the football was dire at the time, regardless.

Because of that I vented my feelings.
I was too hasty in wanting him out but not too hasty in having a pop at him and to this day I feel he deserved my digs, regardless of whether people agree with me or not.

Yes of course I went over the top. I was fuming and couldn't see any light at the end of the tunnel with his earlier ways. Seriously.

Has Rafa proved me wrong?
It depends how it's looked at.

If I have to say anything in my favour and in Rafa's favour I'll say this:

Rafa has turned things around and that much is clear by the way the players are responding and being together as one unit behind him, which is a stark contrast to before January with many who didn't appear to be buying into his over cautious approach.

I believe Rafa was stubborn to the detriment of the squad but I also believe he's actually loosened the over cautious reins since Kenedy, Dubravka and Slimani came in by allowing Kenedy to do what he's best at and also allowing the out of favour players to do what they're best at rather than simply just following one plan of action.

Basically speaking I believe they were allowed to play their natural game and to express themselves on the front foot with a mindset on their defensive duties as drilled.

That's what I think.

Now, regardless of what was said earlier on and me being peed right off with him...I'm actually warming to him by the game, because he deserves the plaudits, as do the players and everyone involved...including the fans.

By all means people can call me fickle or a wind up or a contrarian without a cause but anyone that does that needs understand that my Newcastle United experience will ebb and flow as and when situations dictate and my actions will follow that passage, good bad or indifferent.

And also people need to realise that we are all fickle and contrarian but some don't grasp that mass contrarianism is the same as minority contrarianism to the minority.
See what I mean?

Mass beats minority 99.9999999999999% of the time, whether it's correct or not, which leaves the minority as simple trouble makers or a resistance to a potential truth but not a whole truth, necessarily.

[ex_pat_magpie]

Thanks for a lot of nothing Wilf.

[waalsendmick]

it wasn't just this board that called them championship players. almost every pundit did, including shearer, supermac and Mick Quinn (the ones who would usually defend the team at least in mitigation).

the FACT is, Rafa has done a superb job, with a relatively weak squad, and he has improved several players along the way, notably defensively.

there's not a TOON fan alive who wouldn't have accepted where we are now, before the season started. so why people still have to argue, just so they sound as if they were right all along, is beyond me.

well done ALL at NUFC (including Ashley and charnley, they managed to keep Rafa and their low budget gamble has paid off).


onwards and upwards!!!

[Andy1981_2]

Stats can tell you a lot of things that do not marry up with a visual appraisal of the game.
85% possession could mean 75% passing and going nowhere, yet the 15% opposition can lob a few balls into the danger area and score one. Game over.
Or it could be opposite of that.

However, the issue isn't about percentage or shots on target or shots off target...it's about 90 minutes plus of football in a give and take game for that 90 minutes plus.

Even if it ends 0-0 it can still be entertaining, as long as both teams are taking the game to each other...or if one team takes the game to another, it will be entertaining for their fans but dire as all hell for the opposition.

Rafa's issue was his refusal to change things when it was begging.
You see in most games we had a go in the first half but the second half was an enigma whether we were ahead, drawing or losing, because Rafa generally went cautious, regardless.

He didn't appear to have a plan B to have a go if we were losing or drawing.
He'd appear to have one where he would bring on pacey players or even Mitrovic at the time (Huddersfield springs to mind) yet will literally appear to be shutting up shop with a hit and hope for some kind of half hearted counter attacking when it was super safe to do so.
It beggared belief.

In that time and nearly each game, I was getting depressed. I was losing the will to get excited about any game.
Now and again we'd be treated to a good game where it became a head scratcher, because we come out worthy winners and entertained. (West Ham springs to mind).

Then we'd go right back into dire mode and yet rarely did I blame the players because I saw they were working to a plan and putting in the effort.
Rafa's plan was not working. It was dire football at that time.

People can by all means argue that he was getting things right.
In normal circumstances it can be argued that it takes time to get things to work and tinkering has to happen, plus the rough and the smooth and all that.
I accept that this can be the case...but the football was dire at the time, regardless.

Because of that I vented my feelings.
I was too hasty in wanting him out but not too hasty in having a pop at him and to this day I feel he deserved my digs, regardless of whether people agree with me or not.

Yes of course I went over the top. I was fuming and couldn't see any light at the end of the tunnel with his earlier ways. Seriously.

Has Rafa proved me wrong?
It depends how it's looked at.

If I have to say anything in my favour and in Rafa's favour I'll say this:

Rafa has turned things around and that much is clear by the way the players are responding and being together as one unit behind him, which is a stark contrast to before January with many who didn't appear to be buying into his over cautious approach.

I believe Rafa was stubborn to the detriment of the squad but I also believe he's actually loosened the over cautious reins since Kenedy, Dubravka and Slimani came in by allowing Kenedy to do what he's best at and also allowing the out of favour players to do what they're best at rather than simply just following one plan of action.

Basically speaking I believe they were allowed to play their natural game and to express themselves on the front foot with a mindset on their defensive duties as drilled.

That's what I think.

Now, regardless of what was said earlier on and me being peed right off with him...I'm actually warming to him by the game, because he deserves the plaudits, as do the players and everyone involved...including the fans.

By all means people can call me fickle or a wind up or a contrarian without a cause but anyone that does that needs understand that my Newcastle United experience will ebb and flow as and when situations dictate and my actions will follow that passage, good bad or indifferent.

And also people need to realise that we are all fickle and contrarian but some don't grasp that mass contrarianism is the same as minority contrarianism to the minority.
See what I mean?

Mass beats minority 99.9999999999999% of the time, whether it's correct or not, which leaves the minority as simple trouble makers or a resistance to a potential truth but not a whole truth, necessarily.

Sorry mate, don't have time to read all this so I'll just respond to a point you make early on about the visual appraisal, and taking the game to the opposition...

What the stats tell you is whether you're visually appraising more shots on goal or less - and they backed up the impression I got of us of creating plenty of chances but (often wildly) missing almost all of them, and then later being more clinical. Also, for me at least, taking the game to an opponent means creating chances on goal i.e. actual shots. Your point about possession supports that idea: you can play a really pretty passing game around the opponents box, but if you're not actually taking shots on goal then you just aren't taking the game to them, you're simply keeping possession for the sake of keeping possession. So the stats show we're not taking the game to people any more than we were, but our ability to take the game to them effectively seems to have improved in the second half of the season. You'd expect that with better quality players at your disposal.