OT: Old Mrs. May's fudge shoppe

[Elite_Pie]

I don't think we should have a second referendum, we voted to leave (stupidly in my opinion), so leave is what we should do. What we should have done is made the first vote part one - should we negotiate a deal to leave the EU or should we remain in the EU? If we voted to negotiate to leave, the final deal should have gone to a second vote. The problem is that nobody had a clue what "Leave" meant, and more worryingly two years down the line still nobody has a clue. Anyone who thought that leaving meant a complete break from the EU must be living in fantasy land. It was never going to happen, because both politicians and big business realise it would cripple the economy. I'm afraid "Half-Brexit" is the best leave voters can hope for.

[AltyPie]

A 3 way question according to Justine Greening:

"She states there are three options: the PM's deal, staying in the EU or a clean break from Europe with no deal.

Ms Greening, who resigned after the cabinet reshuffle in January, said the referendum should offer a first and second preference vote so that a consensus can be reached."

I thought you were complaining that people were not well informed enough about the first Ref which only had two questions - In or Out, to have been able to make an informed decision? Now you're complicating it further with a third choice which is May's proposed deal which is even more complicated to understand. Anyway, two of those choices are effectively Remain so it would be a swizz with a 1st and 2nd preference - no wonder you're pushing that one.

Anyway, I can't understand how you, Sid and others on here who seem to claim "Leftist" sympathies can possibly be in favour of the EU. The sole argument you and others seem to have is that you're convinced there'll be an economic disaster if we Leave for which you've got no proof whatsoever. Whenever did any economists predict the future with any success? The democracy & sovereignty arguments are plenty strong enough to justify Leave, but there's plenty of economic issues that should make anyone with any Socialistic or "Leftist" tendencies reject the EU. Here's just a few:

Abolishing wage indexation, ensuring wages in the Public sector rise at or below the rate of inflation, attacks on collective bargaining especially in those countries that needed bailing out, a "Stability & Growth Pact" that limits the size of a country's deficit to 3% of GDP which severely limits what a country can do in times of recession or downturns, rail privatisations that have led to huge layoffs in Romania & Bulgaria, real evidence that those countries that have had the fastest increase in populations due to immigration have had the slowest growth in GDP Per Capita (which is a real measure of how "workers" are hit), and the devastating effect the Common Fisheries Policy has had on the UK's coastal communities. These things make life worse for "workers" & some favour business owning Capitalists, so how is it that anyone on "the Left" can favour the EU?

Economic scare tactics were used on the Norwegian public in their 1994 In/Out Referendum. They were told they'd lose 50,000 jobs, fisheries would suffer, blah blah blah... What happened? Nothing of the sort and the unemployment rate in Norway is now 3.7%, better than all but 3 EU nations and one of them is Germany.

Goldman Sachs, J.P.Morgan & Morgan Stanley all funded Remain - surely THAT should tell you all you need to know about the EU?

Apart from fear about economic woes, just why do you want to stay in the EU and what ideas from "the Left" of politics do you think are arguments for Remaining?

[Airborn Pie]

I thought you were complaining that people were not well informed enough about the first Ref which only had two questions - In or Out, to have been able to make an informed decision? Now you're complicating it further with a third choice which is May's proposed deal which is even more complicated to understand. Anyway, two of those choices are effectively Remain so it would be a swizz with a 1st and 2nd preference - no wonder you're pushing that one.

Anyway, I can't understand how you, Sid and others on here who seem to claim "Leftist" sympathies can possibly be in favour of the EU. The sole argument you and others seem to have is that you're convinced there'll be an economic disaster if we Leave for which you've got no proof whatsoever. Whenever did any economists predict the future with any success? The democracy & sovereignty arguments are plenty strong enough to justify Leave, but there's plenty of economic issues that should make anyone with any Socialistic or "Leftist" tendencies reject the EU. Here's just a few:

Abolishing wage indexation, ensuring wages in the Public sector rise at or below the rate of inflation, attacks on collective bargaining especially in those countries that needed bailing out, a "Stability & Growth Pact" that limits the size of a country's deficit to 3% of GDP which severely limits what a country can do in times of recession or downturns, rail privatisations that have led to huge layoffs in Romania & Bulgaria, real evidence that those countries that have had the fastest increase in populations due to immigration have had the slowest growth in GDP Per Capita (which is a real measure of how "workers" are hit), and the devastating effect the Common Fisheries Policy has had on the UK's coastal communities. These things make life worse for "workers" & some favour business owning Capitalists, so how is it that anyone on "the Left" can favour the EU?

Economic scare tactics were used on the Norwegian public in their 1994 In/Out Referendum. They were told they'd lose 50,000 jobs, fisheries would suffer, blah blah blah... What happened? Nothing of the sort and the unemployment rate in Norway is now 3.7%, better than all but 3 EU nations and one of them is Germany.

Goldman Sachs, J.P.Morgan & Morgan Stanley all funded Remain - surely THAT should tell you all you need to know about the EU?

Apart from fear about economic woes, just why do you want to stay in the EU and what ideas from "the Left" of politics do you think are arguments for Remaining?

Very well put.

[Elite_Pie]

I thought you were complaining that people were not well informed enough about the first Ref which only had two questions - In or Out, to have been able to make an informed decision? Now you're complicating it further with a third choice which is May's proposed deal which is even more complicated to understand. Anyway, two of those choices are effectively Remain so it would be a swizz with a 1st and 2nd preference - no wonder you're pushing that one.

I'm not pushing anything - those are Justine Greening's words. If you had bothered to read the thread you would see I said I didn't think there should be a second referendum.

Anyway, I can't understand how you, Sid and others on here who seem to claim "Leftist" sympathies can possibly be in favour of the EU. The sole argument you and others seem to have is that you're convinced there'll be an economic disaster if we Leave for which you've got no proof whatsoever. Whenever did any economists predict the future with any success? The democracy & sovereignty arguments are plenty strong enough to justify Leave, but there's plenty of economic issues that should make anyone with any Socialistic or "Leftist" tendencies reject the EU. Here's just a few:

Abolishing wage indexation, ensuring wages in the Public sector rise at or below the rate of inflation, attacks on collective bargaining especially in those countries that needed bailing out, a "Stability & Growth Pact" that limits the size of a country's deficit to 3% of GDP which severely limits what a country can do in times of recession or downturns, rail privatisations that have led to huge layoffs in Romania & Bulgaria, real evidence that those countries that have had the fastest increase in populations due to immigration have had the slowest growth in GDP Per Capita (which is a real measure of how "workers" are hit), and the devastating effect the Common Fisheries Policy has had on the UK's coastal communities. These things make life worse for "workers" & some favour business owning Capitalists, so how is it that anyone on "the Left" can favour the EU?

Economic scare tactics were used on the Norwegian public in their 1994 In/Out Referendum. They were told they'd lose 50,000 jobs, fisheries would suffer, blah blah blah... What happened? Nothing of the sort and the unemployment rate in Norway is now 3.7%, better than all but 3 EU nations and one of them is Germany.

Goldman Sachs, J.P.Morgan & Morgan Stanley all funded Remain - surely THAT should tell you all you need to know about the EU?

Apart from fear about economic woes, just why do you want to stay in the EU and what ideas from "the Left" of politics do you think are arguments for Remaining?

My argument is a simple one - a complete break from the EU would mean unfettered Tory rule.

I see the EU as the lesser of two evils.

[MagpieTony]

I'm not pushing anything - those are Justine Greening's words. If you had bothered to read the thread you would see I said I didn't think there should be a second referendum.



My argument is a simple one - a complete break from the EU would mean unfettered Tory rule.

I see the EU as the lesser of two evils.

Withdrawal from the EU in no way affects this Nation's ability to have a valid election and vote in our out any particular party. Why on earth should it equate to unfettered Tory rule which I would agree at this current time would be an absolute nightmare?

[dam617]

I'm not pushing anything - those are Justine Greening's words. If you had bothered to read the thread you would see I said I didn't think there should be a second referendum.



My argument is a simple one - a complete break from the EU would mean unfettered Tory rule.

I see the EU as the lesser of two evils.

And if the unthinkable happens and Corbyn gets the keys you'd be speed-dialling Purple Bricks and buying a one way ticket to the Costa del Sol.
So long, suckers - I'll vote for anyone but the Tories because if we get a Socialist government you won't see me for dust.
Una Cerveza por favour.

[the_anticlough]

Apart from fear about economic woes, just why do you want to stay in the EU and what ideas from "the Left" of politics do you think are arguments for Remaining?

Brexit is a key part of the neo-liberal strategy to sell off the NHS, dismantle what's left of the public sector, weaken even further worker's rights and remove regulations protecting the environment, hse, food standards etc.

To understand the thinking behind this read 'Britania Unchained' where tory mps like Dominic Raab. C Brexit, Priti Patel, Kwasi Kwarteng say the "The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music."[1]

So to compete with the likes of India, we have to become more like India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained

Brexit is the completion of the thatcherite project to roll us back to pre-1945 economic and social relations.

To see why they hate the EU so much, check out "Where to Invade next?', where the education, working practices, health and social care is light years ahead of anything offered in the US.

There will be a 2nd referendum. I'll be voting for Remain and if anyone on here wants to give their children and grandchildren a better future than Raab, Patel, Kwarteng, Murdoch and Rees-Mogg plan for them, I suggest 'leave' voters on here seriously think about changing their vote.

You're being conned into the biggest mistake of your lives

[Elite_Pie]

And if the unthinkable happens and Corbyn gets the keys you'd be speed-dialling Purple Bricks and buying a one way ticket to the Costa del Sol.
So long, suckers - I'll vote for anyone but the Tories because if we get a Socialist government you won't see me for dust.
Una Cerveza por favour.

Nah, I'm a true Brit - I love living here and moving abroad permanently holds no appeal at all, even if we got a UKIP government.

Not allowed the cerveza any more, it would be a sidra or vodka for me.

[tarquinbeech]

My argument is a simple one - a complete break from the EU would mean unfettered Tory rule.

I see the EU as the lesser of two evils.

So in answer to Alty's superbly-written, IMO, 500-word argument....Elite gobs out his usual 25-word "response", taking all of 15 seconds....of course, it's not really an answer at all...it's an anti-Tory invective (yawn) spawned inside the empty-headed individual concerned.

So before we joined the European Expansionist Empire, SnobbersOne, I'm assuming that those evil Tory Nazis had been running the UK for 50 years, dragging poor families out of their hovels and down to the nearest work-house? lobbing gays and lessies into the "gender re-assignment clinics" for electro-therapy....and sanctioning low-level strafing runs against Libyan overloaded lilos?......errrr, no.

The England I remember was a green and pleasant land, where knife-crime consisted of an incorrect table setting, a Muslim grooming gang was a Pakistani hairdresser and the only race riot that I'd ever seen, was my mum accusing the Indian corner-shop owner of selling her an out-of-date loaf of bread...oh yes, and Labour and Tories took it in turns RUNNING the country, yes....in those days they had to actually run the country, not defer every big decision to an un-elected body of career politicians shacked up in the Ardennes Forest.....it was called Democracy in those days....where you actually had a choice at the ballot box, more spending and more workers rights and strikes...... or a smarter fiscal policy to get us out of debt.

Life seemed so simple back then huh?

[BigFatPie]

Brexit is a key part of the neo-liberal strategy to sell off the NHS, dismantle what's left of the public sector, weaken even further worker's rights and remove regulations protecting the environment, hse, food standards etc.

To understand the thinking behind this read 'Britania Unchained' where tory mps like Dominic Raab. C Brexit, Priti Patel, Kwasi Kwarteng say the "The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music."[1]

So to compete with the likes of India, we have to become more like India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained

Brexit is the completion of the thatcherite project to roll us back to pre-1945 economic and social relations.

To see why they hate the EU so much, check out "Where to Invade next?', where the education, working practices, health and social care is light years ahead of anything offered in the US.

There will be a 2nd referendum. I'll be voting for Remain and if anyone on here wants to give their children and grandchildren a better future than Raab, Patel, Kwarteng, Murdoch and Rees-Mogg plan for them, I suggest 'leave' voters on here seriously think about changing their vote.

You're being conned into the biggest mistake of your lives

100% correct