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[millmoormagic]

I have repeatedly answered your question. I think the issue is that you just don't like the answer which is 'no' for the reasons that I have set out. I have dodged nothing - I have simply disagreed with you.

The problem is with your insistence that we forget about the real world in which businesses operate and try to treat taxation as the only factor that influences decisions.

It isn't.

The problem can be demonstrated by your argument that:

ours is at 20%, Germany's at 30%, given that, our goods are potentially 10% cheaper, of course the extra costs of exporting those goods to Germany could be considered, that doesn't take away from the fact that we're still cheaper in terms of corporation tax.

Putting it as neutrally as I can, your argument is nonsense. The element of the price of a car that will eventually be paid (as a percentage of the profit that is made on it's sale) is tiny when compared with the cost of making it. It follows that to suggest that the fact that a countries corporate tax rate is 10% lower than the UK means that a car sold there is 'potentially 10% cheaper' makes no sense at all.

Let me try one more analogy in the hope of showing you problem with you argument: If the company that supplies your water put up iyour bill by 10%, it would not be correct to say that your household bills have gone up by 10% as the increase applies to only a proportion of those bills. The same applies to the situation you describe: the Corporation Tax element of the price of an item - the element of that price that will give to the taxman as a percentage of any profit made - will almost always be dwarfed by other costs.

We run a huge and ever increasing trade deficit on goods with the EU, that is only partly offset by a surplus on services. In part that is down to the geographical handicap.

Of course i accept that extra costs will always have to be considered, but you've gone so far off the original track it's kind of unreal, but that's what you do isn't it.
Below is the original post on this thread, it basically is you asking a yes/no question to pup, and me asking you the same, switched yes/no question, you havent answered that at all, you wanted a yes/no answer, so did i, but you aint giving one are you, in your time honoured manner of filibluster.

Quote Originally Posted by KerrAvon View Post
Entertaining rather than boring.

Presumably you would accept that increasing corporate tax rates would make the UK a less attractive place for companies to be domiciled in? Yes or no? Or do you need to check in with an economist before responding??

My question...

Presumably you'd accept that even if the rates were higher, they'd still be lower than ALL our competitors, therefore making it the better option nonetheless.....yes or no.

[KerrAvon]

Of course i accept that extra costs will always have to be considered, but you've gone so far off the original track it's kind of unreal, but that's what you do isn't it.
Below is the original post on this thread, it basically is you asking a yes/no question to pup, and me asking you the same, switched yes/no question, you havent answered that at all, you wanted a yes/no answer, so did i, but you aint giving one are you, in your time honoured manner of filibluster.

Quote Originally Posted by KerrAvon View Post
Entertaining rather than boring.

Presumably you would accept that increasing corporate tax rates would make the UK a less attractive place for companies to be domiciled in? Yes or no? Or do you need to check in with an economist before responding??

My question...

Presumably you'd accept that even if the rates were higher, they'd still be lower than ALL our competitors, therefore making it the better option nonetheless.....yes or no.

For the ump****th time: 'no'.

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

For the ump****th time: 'no'.

Like trying to knit fog l

[howdydoo]

Wow

[one_a_day]

My question...

Presumably you'd accept that even if the rates were higher, they'd still be lower than ALL our competitors, therefore making it the better option nonetheless.....yes or no.

NO

[WanChaiMiller]

For the ump****th time: 'no'.

Surely it's more to do with the cost of relocating, where your markets are, cost of relocating your staff (or find the same quality staff in the new country), retaining staff, cost of the owners emigrating, moving kids and family to a new country, languages you are able to speak, overhead costs....I could go on.

It may well be much cheaper to staying put and paying an extra 5% CT.

[WanChaiMiller]

So spin it round. If its correct Germany has 30% Corp Tax.....why arent German companies falling over themselves to come here.

[WanChaiMiller]

If you start increasing corporation tax rates in the current economic climate you will see a cut in investment along with many, many smes going bust.

It is the thousands of smes up and down the country that contribute most of the tax take and things are tough out there.

We will turnover £17m this year and make £600k pre tax profit. At 20% that leaves us £480k in retained earnings which is used for working capital and future investment. £480k for a company our size and employees 130 people is a pittance.

Last year, we used our retained earnings to open a branch in the North East. We have employeed 15 people.

We are looking in the future to open branches in Scotland and the South West. If we haven’t got the working capital and retained earnings then we won’t be doing so.

In our industry, 23 companies that have recently filed their accounts are showing a loss. The CT rates don’t effect these but many more have seen reduced profits. An increase in CT would have a further damaging effect on these companies.

There are 5 multinationals in our industry with turnover around £200m per year. I used to work for one. Increase CT rates and they would simply shift profits abroad which is easily done by increasing the price of the product from the factory. I have seen them do it. I have also seen them shift profits to the UK by reducing the cost of the product from the factory.

Any increase in CT rates wouldn’t increase the UK tax paid by these companies but it would harm us.

Investment will reduce the companies Corp Tax liability. Not sure how your compny runs but surely 'working capital' wont come out of nett profit.

3.5% nett profit is ptetty good considering the UK average is below 3% - and other companies in your sector run at a loss. I think Tesco at ther height achieved 3% pre tax profit.

[KerrAvon]

Surely it's more to do with the cost of relocating, where your markets are, cost of relocating your staff (or find the same quality staff in the new country), retaining staff, cost of the owners emigrating, moving kids and family to a new country, languages you are able to speak, overhead costs....I could go on.

It may well be much cheaper to staying put and paying an extra 5% CT.

MMM wanted a yes no answer to a question that does not lend itself to such a response.

Given that his logic on the point is fundamentally flawed, 'no' is the best fit answer.

[KerrAvon]

So spin it round. If its correct Germany has 30% Corp Tax.....why arent German companies falling over themselves to come here.

For the same reason that I have given to MMM time and time again, which is that Corporation Tax is just one cost to business (arguably it isn't a cost, given that it is a tax on profit, but the effect is the same for the purposes of this thread). A decision about where to operate is a fine one based upon looking at a number of competing factors.

If there is an argument against the proposition that increasing the tax rate reduces the attractiveness of the UK to do business and will therefore lead to lower levels of investment then I am still waiting for someone to give it. As Grist points out, making a change to such a significant factor alters the equilibrium and will necessarily produce a reaction, with none of the possibilities being job/worker friendly.

Many German companies have a British presence, two of them, Siemens and BMW, have warned that they will re-think their presence here if Brexit increases their costs. If there are reasons to believe that they would not react in a similar fashion to increased costs imposed by a Labour government then I’m still waiting for someone to give them.

An increased Corporation Tax rate is bad for levels of employment and investment. It really is as simple as that. With that being the case, why can't a Labour supporter indicate how many job losses they consider acceptable to fund the tuition fee bribe?