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[millmoormagic]

How am I arguing for those things, MMM? My argument is that increasing corporate tax rates makes the UK a less attractive place to do business than it is at the present time. Surely you can accept that? If you can't, what is your counter argument?

There are several companies who have openly indicated that they are actively considering leaving the UK. HSBC has been saying it for years, Airbus and BMW in the last couple of weeks. So, if a future in the UK is in the balance for huge employers and tax payers such as these (and don't forget the supply chain and support companies that rely on their business) surely you can see the risk in adding in another factor that reduces the attractiveness of the UK?

I don't see increased unemployment and reduced economic activity as a solution to homelessness or poverty.

When have I argued in favour of millionaires dodging tax and what have corporate tax rates got to do with it.

Thanks for pointing out that I'm uncaring. I guess that means that I should pack in the voluntary sessions that I do at my local Citizens Advice Bureau. I've been doing them for four**** years so they are probably sick of seeing me.

Ok, you're slowly getting there, so your argument that the rise in tax makes the UK a less attractive place to do business, ok, i suppose it does, but when those tax rises leave your rate still much LOWER than your competitors, then even though it's less attractive, it's STILL more attractive than those competitors, or are you only including that counter argument when you can include allsorts of other costs to try and prove your argument....

Now youre mentioning Airbus/BMW/Jaguar etc, i think you'll find they're railing against brexit, not much else, they also do business in the EU you know, paying much higher corporation tax than they do here, and would still do with a 5% rise.....do you support brexit....

Those voluntary sessions arent used as a tax break thingy by any chance are they or am i being a tad cynical? i applaud your volunteering...

[KerrAvon]

Ok, you're slowly getting there, so your argument that the rise in tax makes the UK a less attractive place to do business, ok, i suppose it does, but when those tax rises leave your rate still much LOWER than your competitors, then even though it's less attractive, it's STILL more attractive than those competitors, or are you only including that counter argument when you can include allsorts of other costs to try and prove your argument....

Now youre mentioning Airbus/BMW/Jaguar etc, i think you'll find they're railing against brexit, not much else, they also do business in the EU you know, paying much higher corporation tax than they do here, and would still do with a 5% rise.....do you support brexit....

Those voluntary sessions arent used as a tax break thingy by any chance are they or am i being a tad cynical? i applaud your volunteering...

How can I make this simpler for you? I even tried to draw a mental picture for you with the description of my trip to France.

Try this: imagine that you are buying a car and really want a red one (to remind you of Jez every time that you drive it). You are negotiating with two dealers with dealer A offering you a price that is fifty pounds cheaper than dealer B. Naturally you are thinking of buying from A, but then raise the question of colour at which point A says that would be £250 more (raging and Roll got there before you, probably), whereas B says he can do it in red without a price change.

You'd then be left with a choice that turned upon more than one factor, which is exactly the same for companies that are choosing where to operate from.

So imagine our widget man. He knows what it costs to operate in the UK and knows what it costs to operate elsewhere. Labour then get in and increase the cost to him of being in the UK. He then has to decide if he wants to remain. In making that decision comparative tax rates are a factor, but so are the other factors such as the English Channel.

Labour would also increase widget man's costs through an increased minimum wage and, apparently, an increase in the number of public holidays but I've left those out to try to avoid confusing you further.

Airbus and BMW are concerned about the potential for increased costs after Brexit - principally tariffs - a form of taxation.

[rolymiller]

Money, money, money Kerr. That's all you talk about. I can't believe you have not heard the phrase "money is the route of all evil". Surely your mum and dad gave you those sort of values when you were a little kid!

[rolymiller]

Money, money, money Kerr. That's all you talk about. I can't believe you have not heard the phrase "money is the route of all evil". Surely your mum and dad gave you those sort of values when you were a little kid! There is more to life than money. Surely they taught you those sort of values. Sad if they didn't and I am pleased that my mum and dad brought me up with those values bless em! It is something I have tried to pass on to my kids as well. The best things in life are free. You don't need money to be happy BUT you do need it to survive.

A song for you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ

Grist's favourite band. He needs to listen to the lyrics as well or maybe he just likes Dave Gilmour's guitar solos!

(Dunno why its part duplicated me post, MM most have thrown a wobbly).

[mikemiller]

(Dunno why its part duplicated me post, MM most have thrown a wobbly).

It's intermittently flashing up "database error" and "Footymad have been informed of the fault"
Do not adjust your set or thump your computer - it's a fault at their end

[ragingpup]

You've never bothered me raging.

As for me baiting you, I assume that is a reference to me asking you how many job losses you would think acceptable for certain policies? That wasn't baiting - they were genuine questions. Seemingly you really don't want to answer, despite your frequent insistence that other posters answer yours.

Do you truly believe that Labour have stumbled across a consequence free way of raising tax or is it necessary for Labour Party members to adopt a 'three wise monkey' approach to party policy these days?

On a lighter note, did you go to Jez Fest?

My answer to your question is that, as repeated in previous discussions, I don't accept that rises in corporation tax , if kept reasonable and competitive (yes taking into account the UK factors you've mentioned) automatically = employer relocation and job losses. So I cannot answer your question as you are thinking only in simplistic black and white terms. You know my position on this from our previous discussions, hence my reluctance to get back into it.

MMM has already pointed out to you, in quite clear terms that you seem unable to grasp (whilst accusing all others of being unable to grasp simple points) this simple factor that an employer would not relocate unless there are clearly better economic terms being offered elsewhere. And in many cases, employers in smaller companies have roots in the UK in their own lives and would not move unless the terms become hugely more attractive elsewhere. But no one is suggesting that any tax increases would be substantial enough to make relocation a consideration.

I don't oppose cutting corporation tax in principle. If someone could clearly show that cutting corporation tax leads to generating more money in tax revenue, I'd be happy with such cuts. But despite us going round in circles, and the passion and knowledge you have on this topic, you have failed to provide any convincing evidence that cutting the taxes leads to increased revenues. GM has provided a strange graph along with a claim that he has proved this link, but when you find the article that he is linking to, it is simply a discssion of an effect that that an investment boost for a company = greater growth for that company (acceleration effect) which is all well and good for the company and stakeholders but somehow we can't find a clear link that this increases overall tax revenue to improve our services. This suggests to me that such a boost (corporation tax cuts) does have an impact on economic growth but it does not offset the loss to tax revenues brought about by the corporation tax cuts.

Some have put to you that we can see the deterioration in services and society all around us. I have to work with them every day, with high needs students support being cut, our local youth services closing down so more young people left hanging on the streets, the local bobby linked to our college unable to do his drop in visits to build crucial relationships with our vulnerable learners and in my home life my wife's charity pared down to the bone, my daughter's school having to increase class sizes as they can't replace the next departing teacher. These are just things in my life. Yet you answer that there is no evidence that things wouldn't have been worse without the corporation tax cuts, totally oblivious to the lack of evidence that things are better because of the corporation tax. Sorry old lad but whilst we can't prove this situation one way or the other, one thing we crucially can be sure of is that we HAVE done it your way, with corporation tax cuts and what we see around us is the result. My motto at work when staff are ****ing up is 'keep doing the same thing and you'll get the same results'. This is where I think we are.

I think it is fair to say that Labour's manifesto commitments, if came to pass, would force business to rethink their strategy, adjust its operations but they would continue to operate within the UK as the alternatives aren't attractive enough to relocate. These adjustments, in some cases will result in job losses, I think that is fair to say but the current way we are operating is forcing large amounts of job losses in the public sector as cut upon cut, year upon year is made. And I think that any such losses would be offset with extra investment in public services, hence I don't accept your simplistic question.

Luckily, that manifesto, whilst not enough to win the last election did prove very popular and I think showed Labour the direction it needs to travel in the near future, as opposed to previous very centre-left proposals.

Just out of interest, a small group on here put an awful lot of time and energy into these rather circular arguments. I can see that MMM, Roly, animal etc are motivated by a frustration and anger in the society around them, that I mention above. What is it that motivates you in investing your time and effort on here? It seems to me that the last 40 years of neo-liberal UK society if giving you pretty much what you want and that society as it is now, is pretty much functioning as you would want it to? So why not just enjoy it's successes? Or maybe even contribute to a footy thread? :-)

[Lasterman]

Money, money, money Kerr. That's all you talk about. I can't believe you have not heard the phrase "money is the route of all evil". Surely your mum and dad gave you those sort of values when you were a little kid! There is more to life than money. Surely they taught you those sort of values. Sad if they didn't and I am pleased that my mum and dad brought me up with those values bless em! It is something I have tried to pass on to my kids as well. The best things in life are free. You don't need money to be happy BUT you do need it to survive.

A song for you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ

Grist's favourite band. He needs to listen to the lyrics as well or maybe he just likes Dave Gilmour's guitar solos!

(Dunno why its part duplicated me post, MM most have thrown a wobbly).

The phrase is "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."

Comes from Timothy in The King James Bible. Leaving aside the accuracy and sagicity of everything in there for a moment, I wonder if the modern day equivalent relates to a wandering from the faith in St Jeremy?

[millmoormagic]

How can I make this simpler for you? I even tried to draw a mental picture for you with the description of my trip to France.

Try this: imagine that you are buying a car and really want a red one (to remind you of Jez every time that you drive it). You are negotiating with two dealers with dealer A offering you a price that is fifty pounds cheaper than dealer B. Naturally you are thinking of buying from A, but then raise the question of colour at which point A says that would be £250 more (raging and Roll got there before you, probably), whereas B says he can do it in red without a price change.

You'd then be left with a choice that turned upon more than one factor, which is exactly the same for companies that are choosing where to operate from.

So imagine our widget man. He knows what it costs to operate in the UK and knows what it costs to operate elsewhere. Labour then get in and increase the cost to him of being in the UK. He then has to decide if he wants to remain. In making that decision comparative tax rates are a factor, but so are the other factors such as the English Channel.

Labour would also increase widget man's costs through an increased minimum wage and, apparently, an increase in the number of public holidays but I've left those out to try to avoid confusing you further.

Airbus and BMW are concerned about the potential for increased costs after Brexit - principally tariffs - a form of taxation.

How can you make this simpler for me???? wow, now it's pretty clear you're waffling like an spent politician, your lawyer trait of not wanting to lose the argument so you bluff and bluster your way around it....pathetic to be honest.

I made it VERY plain in my reply, and you're being either A. Very childish and naive with your answer or B. You think i'm thick.

Now, in your scenario that's not what is really happening is it, given that dealer B's prices are already much higher, given their higher corporation tax, so dealer A is already quintessentially cheaper, and dealer A's rise STILL MAKES HIM CHEAPER THAN DEALER B BECAUSE HIS CORPORATION TAX IS STILL LESS....

That is the nub of the question that you won't answer, squirming away in your hedonistic world of 'i'm better than them because i can waffle along until they lose interest'.

So you're still continuing to bring in other factors, this isn't about other factors, answer this one question, it's very very simple, here we go again....

So, let's take Germany as our example, the UK has a corporation tax of 20%, if Corbyn gets in power we raise that to 25%....Germany's corporation tax rate is running at 30%...

So, we've gone from having a tax at a rate of 10% lower to one of 5% lower...so any companies will obviously be LESS attracted, but will still be better off here.

Final point, Labour will increase the minimum wage to a decent living wage, in work poverty is rife in your tory utopia which is the UK, why are you against that exactly, i'll be honest i'd hate to get you at the CAB when asking for debt advice, i'd probably end up phoning the samaritans straight afterwards.....

[ragingpup]

i'll be honest i'd hate to get you at the CAB when asking for debt advice, i'd probably end up phoning the samaritans straight afterwards.....

Can you guess who'll pick up the phone at the Samaritans?!

[millmoormagic]

Can you guess who'll pick up the phone at the Samaritans?!

Doesn't bare thinking about....