O/T European Union

[KerrAvon]

I think we need to reestablish where we sit in the grand scheme of things , both our historical views are from opposing directions and explains why we clash so much .

The picture you are attempting to paint to the jury is one of hypocrisy and that somehow myself and you are actually aligned , we aren't .

During our exchanges over the years you've more than championed the neoliberal wet dream and as I pointed out to you on this network recently I've yet to see you stand up for normal working people although you don't seem to have a problem with hate preachers who turn muslims in to the killers of kids at pop concerts in manchester .

Left examine what your views mean in real life to the less well off in this country and let the reader determine who votes or supports to make people worse off .

You said recently that austerity is a good thing because it's showed a small surplus , what you don't of course say is who in society have paid that price and who has reaped the benefits , those who reap the benefits are the ones historically you tend to support .

This is what you vote for and support .


I'll take local government as my subject because in essence this provides the basis of services normal working people rely on every day .


Local government have suffered a reduction in revenue of 20% since 2010 .

Police spending is down by 17% and they have reduced officers by 14% , this has resulted in a rise in crime as you would expect .

Spending on prisons is down by 20% and assaults on guards has doubled .


Spending on road maintenance has shrunk by a quarter .

Support for local libraries by a third .

The National Court system have eleminated a third of it's staff .

Let's look at Merseyside which is one of the least well off city's in the UK .

Five fire stations have closed down and it's cut it's firefighters down from a 1000 to 620 .

They did an investigation into 51 people who died in accidental house fires since austerity kicked in , 19 of the victims were found to be in need of homecare which was clearly denied to them due to cuts to the budget .

Austerity has left more and more people without homecare , unattended and vulnerable , the majority of whom probably paid taxation all their working lifes .

Elderly people entitled to receive homecare and government funded fell by a quarter .

University College London recently did a study in to mortality rates , from 2001 to 2010 they saw a decline .

Since 2010 there are 45, 368 extra deaths that can't be accounted for , totally goes against the trend .

At the current rate of mortality 152,141 more deaths could be recorded before 2020 , associated to austerity was their verdict .

You are a supporter of the city of london historically on these pages .

It's without question they concorted a financial crisis through reckless gambling and by doing do multiplied their own wealth .

The London government used the budget deficit as an excuse to cut public spending for the less wealth off whilst handing tax cuts to corporations , again another one your thumbs up and high fives .

This is what you support and vote for , ill let the readers decide for themselves who votes to keep working and elderly people down .


And that's without even mentioning the NHS and Universal Credit debacles .


I'll await your usual grab bag of cliched dismissals .

Blimey. It would have taken a lot less time for you to just answer my questions:

Do you choose to pay more tax than you are required to?

And on a secondary note, do you sometimes choose not to pay tax that you should? You seem to know a bit about the habits of the illegal tobacco importers.

My comments about your pergola and your plans to retire to Spain are merely reflections upon your own posts on the subjects. For the record. I have no issue with anything that you do. It’s possible that I find it a bit hypocritical, but, in my experience, hypocrisy often goes hand in hand with a belief in ‘Socialism’. I find that Socialists can usually find a way to argue that their wealth is somehow different and exempt from the redistribution that they seem to want to do to the wealth of others. At its worst Socialists find that their views have more value than those of others – e.g. when you decided that your view that coal miners should strike took precedence over the views of miners who decided against it. As George Orwell wrote when he became disillusioned with the Left: ‘All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.’

I’ve never said that austerity is a good thing. I’ve said that I am of the view that is a necessary thing given the size of the UK budget deficit. Forget capital repayments – the size of the interest payments alone on the national debt is north of £45bn this year – about 8% of the government tax take. Imagine what a sum like that would do if it were available to spend on services.

And, of course, austerity has achieved its end in that the structural deficit was ended last year and the national debt (as a % of GDP) should start to fall this year. It probably isn’t a coincidence that the promise of more cash for the NHS and an ending to the public sector pay cap has followed.

I’ve not fact checked your post. I’m guessing that it is not all your own work and that it comes from a militant tendency/momentum handout? What I have done is to repeatedly acknowledge that the poorest in society bear the brunt of austerity, because they are more reliant upon public spending than the better off.

I note your reference to the NHS. I’m not surprised that you want to brush over it. The Labour manifesto last year proposed an increase in spending on the NHS and social care of £6bn p.a. In other words about £16bn p.a. shy of what the NHS alone says it needs. At the same time, the manifesto promised a tuition fee bribe to the middle classes that would cost somewhere between £7bn and £11.2bn (it depends how you calculate it - £11.2bn is the upfront cost). That’s a funny set of priorities don’t you think? £11.2bn represents more than a third of the extra spending that Labour was promising in its manifesto.

As for Universal Credit, Labour declined to say that they would reverse the benefit cap saying that they couldn’t afford it. The comment about the tuition fee bribe applies equally to that. I guess buying middle class votes is more important to Labour than actually doing something to help the less well off.

Finally, I should mention that I have never voted Tory in a General Election (and won’t whilst my current MP – a Tory – is on the ballot paper). I also have a problem with hate preachers who turn Muslims into ‘the killers of kids at pop concerts in Manchester’. I’m used to you stooping low, but would prefer you threatening me again rather than have you use atrocities like that to try to make your point.

[KerrAvon]

I'm not blaming anyone for voting leave , I voted leave myself .

Everyone has their own personal reason why they voted leave same as those who voted remain .

Dennis Skinner and Jacob Rees Mogg voted leave and they are about as far apart politically as you can get but both are leave voters .

It was a reaction to austerity rather than any hope of it ending in anycase with regards to towns like ours in my opinion .

Stuck two fingers up to it and said fuq you Cameron which is fair enough .

Who says that lightening doesn't strike twice in the same place. After finding your first reason for voting leave to be one of the lamest I have ever seen, you have now trumped it. If people truly voted leave because they ‘Stuck two fingers up to it and said fuq you Cameron’ then heaven help us. You have to fear for the noses of such voters if they ever decide to spite their faces.

[animallittle3]

Who says that lightening doesn't strike twice in the same place. After finding your first reason for voting leave to be one of the lamest I have ever seen, you have now trumped it. If people truly voted leave because they ‘Stuck two fingers up to it and said fuq you Cameron’ then heaven help us. You have to fear for the noses of such voters if they ever decide to spite their faces.

I didn't say I voted leave to stick two fingers up to Cameron I said it was a factor in towns like Barnsley .

The article in the link paints the picture and I've read quite a few of these over several publications .

The Guardian is very remain by the way just in case you weren't aware .


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...says-thinktank

[animallittle3]

Blimey. It would have taken a lot less time for you to just answer my questions:

Do you choose to pay more tax than you are required to?

And on a secondary note, do you sometimes choose not to pay tax that you should? You seem to know a bit about the habits of the illegal tobacco importers.

My comments about your pergola and your plans to retire to Spain are merely reflections upon your own posts on the subjects. For the record. I have no issue with anything that you do. It’s possible that I find it a bit hypocritical, but, in my experience, hypocrisy often goes hand in hand with a belief in ‘Socialism’. I find that Socialists can usually find a way to argue that their wealth is somehow different and exempt from the redistribution that they seem to want to do to the wealth of others. At its worst Socialists find that their views have more value than those of others – e.g. when you decided that your view that coal miners should strike took precedence over the views of miners who decided against it. As George Orwell wrote when he became disillusioned with the Left: ‘All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.’

I’ve never said that austerity is a good thing. I’ve said that I am of the view that is a necessary thing given the size of the UK budget deficit. Forget capital repayments – the size of the interest payments alone on the national debt is north of £45bn this year – about 8% of the government tax take. Imagine what a sum like that would do if it were available to spend on services.

And, of course, austerity has achieved its end in that the structural deficit was ended last year and the national debt (as a % of GDP) should start to fall this year. It probably isn’t a coincidence that the promise of more cash for the NHS and an ending to the public sector pay cap has followed.

I’ve not fact checked your post. I’m guessing that it is not all your own work and that it comes from a militant tendency/momentum handout? What I have done is to repeatedly acknowledge that the poorest in society bear the brunt of austerity, because they are more reliant upon public spending than the better off.

I note your reference to the NHS. I’m not surprised that you want to brush over it. The Labour manifesto last year proposed an increase in spending on the NHS and social care of £6bn p.a. In other words about £16bn p.a. shy of what the NHS alone says it needs. At the same time, the manifesto promised a tuition fee bribe to the middle classes that would cost somewhere between £7bn and £11.2bn (it depends how you calculate it - £11.2bn is the upfront cost). That’s a funny set of priorities don’t you think? £11.2bn represents more than a third of the extra spending that Labour was promising in its manifesto.

As for Universal Credit, Labour declined to say that they would reverse the benefit cap saying that they couldn’t afford it. The comment about the tuition fee bribe applies equally to that. I guess buying middle class votes is more important to Labour than actually doing something to help the less well off.

Finally, I should mention that I have never voted Tory in a General Election (and won’t whilst my current MP – a Tory – is on the ballot paper). I also have a problem with hate preachers who turn Muslims into ‘the killers of kids at pop concerts in Manchester’. I’m used to you stooping low, but would prefer you threatening me again rather than have you use atrocities like that to try to make your point.

Kerr I'm not using atrocities to make a point but I well remember the debate with Guntery several years ago that covered 5 or 6 pages where you resolutely defended Choudary , I don't need to remind anyone which side of the debate Guntery sat .


I'm sure if he's reading this he will remember the debate himself .

[animallittle3]

Blimey. It would have taken a lot less time for you to just answer my questions:

Do you choose to pay more tax than you are required to?

And on a secondary note, do you sometimes choose not to pay tax that you should? You seem to know a bit about the habits of the illegal tobacco importers.

My comments about your pergola and your plans to retire to Spain are merely reflections upon your own posts on the subjects. For the record. I have no issue with anything that you do. It’s possible that I find it a bit hypocritical, but, in my experience, hypocrisy often goes hand in hand with a belief in ‘Socialism’. I find that Socialists can usually find a way to argue that their wealth is somehow different and exempt from the redistribution that they seem to want to do to the wealth of others. At its worst Socialists find that their views have more value than those of others – e.g. when you decided that your view that coal miners should strike took precedence over the views of miners who decided against it. As George Orwell wrote when he became disillusioned with the Left: ‘All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.’

I’ve never said that austerity is a good thing. I’ve said that I am of the view that is a necessary thing given the size of the UK budget deficit. Forget capital repayments – the size of the interest payments alone on the national debt is north of £45bn this year – about 8% of the government tax take. Imagine what a sum like that would do if it were available to spend on services.

And, of course, austerity has achieved its end in that the structural deficit was ended last year and the national debt (as a % of GDP) should start to fall this year. It probably isn’t a coincidence that the promise of more cash for the NHS and an ending to the public sector pay cap has followed.

I’ve not fact checked your post. I’m guessing that it is not all your own work and that it comes from a militant tendency/momentum handout? What I have done is to repeatedly acknowledge that the poorest in society bear the brunt of austerity, because they are more reliant upon public spending than the better off.

I note your reference to the NHS. I’m not surprised that you want to brush over it. The Labour manifesto last year proposed an increase in spending on the NHS and social care of £6bn p.a. In other words about £16bn p.a. shy of what the NHS alone says it needs. At the same time, the manifesto promised a tuition fee bribe to the middle classes that would cost somewhere between £7bn and £11.2bn (it depends how you calculate it - £11.2bn is the upfront cost). That’s a funny set of priorities don’t you think? £11.2bn represents more than a third of the extra spending that Labour was promising in its manifesto.

As for Universal Credit, Labour declined to say that they would reverse the benefit cap saying that they couldn’t afford it. The comment about the tuition fee bribe applies equally to that. I guess buying middle class votes is more important to Labour than actually doing something to help the less well off.

Finally, I should mention that I have never voted Tory in a General Election (and won’t whilst my current MP – a Tory – is on the ballot paper). I also have a problem with hate preachers who turn Muslims into ‘the killers of kids at pop concerts in Manchester’. I’m used to you stooping low, but would prefer you threatening me again rather than have you use atrocities like that to try to make your point.

I've said my piece about how I see you and your politics and I won't budge one inch from my view of you .

You've responded .

We could go on till the end of time , my attention span and patience isn't up to a 400 page view , counter view and repeat .

I get bored after this length of time but you do this shyte for a living so it then becomes a war of attrition .

Till the next time .............................

[Gwynn Thomas vs stum]

Brexit schmexit

[EastStandRed]

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