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Thread: OT - Boris Johnson and the Freedom of Speech

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    I have much the same attitude to major tattoos, body piercings and crucifixes and if no harm is being done it’s a case of live and let live for me.
    Never even liked earrings in any size, shape or form and those big ones in the lobe..... huge turn off for me. As are nose rings and those through the lip. The tongue ring is, IMO, an abomination and cheek studs.... well, enough said.

    I find it hard to understand how anybody would find these things attractive.

    Am I really just too old to appreciate? More likely just an old fashioned, miserable git who doesn't move with the times.

    Some people have tried to change my views on this. They failed..... big time. The only 2 items of "jewellery" I wear are a watch and my wedding ring. 40 something years ago, my girl friend at the time was Catholic and believed, absolutely and completely, in the teachings of that faith. She knew I was an Atheist and also knew my dislike of men wearing jewellery. I can't remember if it was Chrsitmas or a birthday but...... my present was a gold crucifix on a gold chain........ Really? You do know I am not going to wear this, EVER. The response was that she had hoped...... probably prayed too and then began to understand prayer doesn't work. Two and a half years we were together. Just a few months after the crucifix incident she dumped me, blaming my Soul all nighters (she was into C&W and never came to one), DJing, a few pints most days and going to 30 odd football matches a season...... You'll never be able to save a deposit on a house that way. 9 months later I bought my first house.......

    I have always thought that she finally realised that the boy wasn't for turning..... I had actually had quite a few chats with their local priest who was a regular visitor at their house. He understood where I was coming from. He understood the reasons I had for not believing. The many contradictions in the bible for which he had no answer other than none of his flock had ever brought it up. How did he expect me to believe that 2 kangaroos had hopped from Australia to Mount Sinai to get on the Ark and then hopped all the way back (swam quite a bit of the way too). How could I worship a deity that allowed horrors to be perpetrated in his/her/its name without launching a barrage of lightning bolts at the jerks responsible...... again, he had no reply. He might have said God made it happen but realised that wouldn't sway me. He also didn't know what the carnivores ate during the "cruise". I suggested, with a grin on my face, that some species actually became extinct on the Ark..... he laughed at that one. Still had the odd pint in a local boozer with him after the break up.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    Looking down my Facebook feed and there’s an interesting divide. Maybe 90% of those who have a public profile and who have expressed an opinion condemn BJ and defend the right of Muslim women to wear burkas. Of those who are just ‘normal’ people I would guess 95% to 99% who expressed an opinion back Boris’ right to have an opinion AND agree with the point he’s making. That demonstrates yet again the massive disconnect between the elite and the proletariat in this country. He’s made a statement which has from
    What I can see increased his appeal with ‘the great unwashed’ who continue to rail against those who in the past they would have had to doff their caps at.

    Yes by the way he does come over as a bit daft
    Ah Andy, thought you’d gone the way of all FM mods and disappeared.

    Not sure what a survey of your ‘Facebook feed’ tells us. Know very little about Facebook or for that matter what you think a ‘normal’ person is, but I feel we should be in no doubt that Johnson and Co. have a not terribly well hidden agenda and will use the ‘disconnect’ you describe to simply further their own aims.
    Don’t think anyone disputes Johnson’s right to have an opinion and voice it. There are both well founded and purely prejudicial reasons for objecting to the burka, the question though is whether Boris Johnson - sadly imo a potential leader of this country - raised the issue in an appropriate way.
    Imo he didn’t, he has learned, from Trump, that tapping into the populist vogue for the language of reactionary ridicule, previously unacceptable and usually prejudicial statements can be a vote winner and he has acted totally irresponsibly in raising a divisive issue which, given the current state of affairs in this country, has little, if any, relevance.

    This country faces a massive financial challenge to its future as a result of the Referendum result. Whether a few Muslim women wear a burka or not is utterly irrelevant to the challenges we face but I fear that Johnson recognises the probability of a second referendum and is already sowing the seeds of his ‘us and them’ campaign to achieve much the same aim as his bus and Farage’s completely misleading ‘refugee’ poster back in 2016.

    Oh for a capable opposition!

  3. #23
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    Re earlier post


    1. Because if you do so you will stir up a hornet's nest and risk being called an Islamophobe, bigot, racist, etc. Why land yourself in bother? It's more talked about than any other religion because other faiths aren't so controversial and therefore newsworthy.

    2. The fault of a small number of immigrants? Many of whom describe themselves as muslim? Little research has been done into the chilling deeds and causes of the Rotherham muslim atrocities so it's difficult to apportion blame to anyone. But suffice it to say, these deeds are mandated in their Holy Book.

    3. Sadness? Forget the stage-managed TV footage of weeping Imams, I suspect muslims were more sad that such events were carried out in their name.

    Boris Johnson has been lambasted for making a silly comparison but he cannot possibly have known the extent to which his words have been seized upon. It's lucky he didn't quote Holy Book scripture. Now that really would have elicited a response.

  4. #24
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    If any of your children married a Muslim and changed to their religion , could you accept your daughter or granddaughter wearing a burka? I for one would be so against it!
    Last edited by Manofpride; 11-08-2018 at 10:06 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manofpride View Post
    If any of your children married a Muslim and changed to their religion , could you accept your daughter or granddaughter wearing a burka? I for one would be so against it!
    Can't see either of my sons wearing a Burka I also doubt they would court and wed a girl they couldn't see (and more) prior to the wedding night.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadAmster View Post
    Can't see either of my sons wearing a Burka I also doubt they would court and wed a girl they couldn't see (and more) prior to the wedding night.
    If your son married a muslim girl and they had a daughter, would it bother you if your granddaughter was wearing a burka?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manofpride View Post
    If any of your children married a Muslim and changed to their religion , could you accept your daughter or granddaughter wearing a burka? I for one would be so against it!
    Don’t really understand your point MoP. Of course I wouldn’t be happy...I wouldn’t be happy if they married into or were brought up according to the strictures of any religion come to that...or, God forbid, became involved with a Jehovah’s Witness or UKIP supporter.

    Fact is though that some people want to wear a burka while others feel the need to wear a crucifix, a turban or a Forest shirt. I don’t understand any of those ‘needs’ tbh, but until they become synonymous with doing harm to people I’ll just think of it as a case of each to their own.
    Last edited by ramAnag; 11-08-2018 at 11:12 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manofpride View Post
    If any of your children married a Muslim and changed to their religion , could you accept your daughter or granddaughter wearing a burka? I for one would be so against it!
    Actually this burka thing is over-rated. There's no compulsion to wear but some purposely do it, to garner attention and show off their 'religiousness.' And back to actually - women are free to wear or not wear, with a veil during certain occasions or prayers. And also another fact - if the husband doesn't want the wife to wear one (veil), she doesn't have to. (No not going into the equality and rights of the women etc). Just the text which describes it. Take Malaysia's Dr Mahathirr, his wife was asked why she doesn't wear a veil? She replied, her husband forbade her to.
    So there you have it, no compulsion, just dress modestly. And if your husband has no objections, you can dress as you like. So I don't why these Muslims men are making a fuss? Give your wife the choice, better still tell her no need to wear a veil or burka.

    Now to your question? Oh I've pondered this many a time. I have members of my family who have married Muslims. Only 1 converted because he wanted to. He's quite into the Muslim thingy, so that's fine. His choice. Still another didn't convert and all the kids are non-Muslim Another also married didn't convert but allows his wife to continue with her religion. And my brother married a Muslim gal, he didn't; convert either, but allows his kids to be raised as Muslims.

    So what would be my decision, well I'll leave t omy kids. It's their decision to make, even if I disagree with the choice or need to convert, I would respect the decision they take and do my best ensure they are happy. And if it doesn't work out, also doesn't matter, there will be no recriminations or I told you so's. Just come back, we'll be there for you. My role as a parent is to support my kids and respect their choices in life, unless of course, it's something dangerous or harmful to them.
    If she wants to wear a burrka, it's okay with me, I'll even help to buy one.

  9. #29
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    Jun 2016
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    Don’t agree again.
    1) This may have once been the case but not any more. As long as criticism is reasonable and objective I don’t see that there’s a problem. However daft you or I might think the burka is, a major politician ridiculing an item of religious garb by comparing the wearers to letter boxes or bank robbers is neither reasonable nor objective. It is inflammatory and irresponsible.

    2) Lots of ‘research’ or investigation has gone on into Rotherham and Rochdale. Most of the perpetrators were ‘Muslim’ and of Pakistani, origin and most of the victims were the children of poor and very inadequate white parents. I claim no sort of expertise as far as the Quran is concerned but I’d be amazed if it ever advocates the ***ual abuse of children. Where and how are such actions ‘mandated’ as you suggest?

    3) I have no idea about ‘stage managed weeping Imams’ but I’m pleased we agree that most Muslims were ‘sad that such events were carried out in their name’. That’s what I suggested, just as I implied most Catholics would have felt about the excessively violent actions of the IRA that many of us grew up with between the 60’s-90’s.

    P.S. Sorry...written in response to post #23.
    Last edited by ramAnag; 11-08-2018 at 11:49 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Fact is though that some people want to wear a burka while others feel the need to wear a crucifix, a turban or a Forest shirt.
    TOTALLY invalid argument and, in the hands of those with some degree of status or influence (such as, for instance Ruth Davidson) as potentially inflammatory as BJs original gob off. Crucifix, turbans and footy shirts are all badges of allegiance but I havent seen any hiding the wearers identity. If you value an open society you should be supporting the majority requirement for citizens to be open about who they are , not acting as an apologist for a group who seek to conceal themselves

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