OT - Boris Johnson and the Freedom of Speech

[Andy_Faber]

This respecting others customs looks very much like a one way street.

MA, I have a friend from your place (expat like you, but German), who keeps ranting on about BJ going the way of Willie Deel, whats that story?

[Andy_Faber]

Entirely agree. Please stick around sixties...been like fighting a lone battle with this one on here sometimes.

And I almost agree too, apart from the observation that it is not the FAR right, it is much bigger than that. To me far right is tommy Robinson and his ‘footy thug in close season’ brigade, BJs appeal is to many ordinary Joes. Not a boast, an observation.

BJ appeals in the same way that Jeremy Corbyn does and in a way Theresa May never could, by having a human connection with ‘the people’. Regrettably (for her) TM just doesn’t have the human touch.

[GUNTERYY36]

@ Ramanag

I won't string out this jousting but just to say I do believe many muslim women are stupid. I concede not all of them as that isn't true. Indeed, since many are illiterate, they are uninformed rather than lacking in intelligence. Others are unwilling to examine their faith, too ready to (ironically) submit to their lords and masters here on earth and extremely confrontational.

But if I wore a swastika without knowing what it stood for people would call me (to put it kindly) stupid. And doubtlessly a whole number of other things. So I don't think it's a daft comment.

Although we were relegated because of the results over the season it does to an extent depend on perspective. When Barnsley went into their final game they shouldn't have done so resigned to their fate. They could have forgotten about their previous 45 results. They could have gone all out for three points, which would have saved them. Instead the players rolled over and unlike Bolton they were unwilling to put up a fight, all of which determined their final points tally.

@ Andy_Faaber

Tommy Robinson a football thug? In my view the man deserves a knighthood.

[MadAmster]

MA, I have a friend from your place (expat like you, but German), who keeps ranting on about BJ going the way of Willie Deel, whats that story?

Absolutely no idea who Willie Deel is. So I had a look on tinterweb....

I found one female who emigrated to America years ago and lost touch with her Dutch family and finally reconnected with them when she was 99. Unfortunately she was terminally ill so the contact didn't last long. He is probably not referring to her.

The only other close name that might be what he is on about due to his pronunciation is Willie Dille. She was a politician. Dutch MP from 2010 to 2012 for the PVV, that is Geert Wilders' party, right wing populist whose main platform is anti anything remotely connected to Islam. She has been a councillor in the Hague since then. Two years ago she said she had been raped by a group of Muslim men. She also refused to report the incident to the police or name the perpetrators. 4 days ago she committed suicide. Willie was, like Boris, a blonde.

Apart from the above, I have no idea to whom or to what your friend might be referring.

[Ram59]

Surely, we are all being side tracked by a couple of ill chosen words by a bumbling fool who has repeatedly said stupid things in the past.

The real issue should be about women in the 21st century being forced into living in such a way and the fear of upsetting certain religious leaders allowing it to happen even when it's in defiance of our rules of life.

Would any of you be happy for your sister or daughter to marry a Muslim and be forced to dress and act in that manner?

We live in a free society, these women through either force or brainwashing, don't.

[Romanis]

@ Ramanag

I won't string out this jousting but just to say I do believe many muslim women are stupid. I concede not all of them as that isn't true. Indeed, since many are illiterate, they are uninformed rather than lacking in intelligence. Others are unwilling to examine their faith, too ready to (ironically) submit to their lords and masters here on earth and extremely confrontational.

But if I wore a swastika without knowing what it stood for people would call me (to put it kindly) stupid. And doubtlessly a whole number of other things. So I don't think it's a daft comment.

.....

I think you're generalising a wee bit too far. No doubt you have a point - that these women might be dumb or illiterate and even too submissive. But I believe to claim many or even a majority is a wee bit too far.
Before you do, you must however consider the way the religion is practised or at the very least observed or supposed be observed by their adherents.

Islam is a religion that believes in submission. In fact I think the word Islam or Muslim, means submission. A Muslim is supposed to submit himself to Allah, the Almighty. The basic principle in Islam is to believe there's no other God except Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger. As such the words and teachings of Muhammad is to be observed and imitated as far as possible. The Quran itself is not a book which you can read cover to cover, it's a book of revelations made to Muhammad by God through the Angel Gabriel. To understand these verses, you need to read it in conjunction with the Hadiths (Muhammad's teachings) or some other similar book.

Muhammad himself says in these books that Allah is Supreme and not to be questioned. His dictates are to be followed without question. And man can never fully understand the reasons of Allah's dictates. You're supposed to follow them. Now I'm not gonna into the semantics of these. Whether it's true or logical, whether any Angel of God appeared to Muhammad and whether it's a prudent thing for Muslims to question their religion. All these is beside the point, Muslims are taught to follow these teachings (of course problems arise with interpretations and how a narrow reading might justify certain acts of violence etc). But the basic principle stands, they are supposed to follow the commands listed in the Quran.

So it's not just the women, the same is for men as well. And a very clear majority of Muslims are very happy and content to follow these instructions without question. Many Muslim if not most Muslim women are therefore comfortable and agreeable to it. So when you say:

Indeed, since many are illiterate, they are uninformed rather than lacking in intelligence. Others are unwilling to examine their faith, too ready to (ironically) submit to their lords and masters here on earth and extremely confrontational.

It's not the case that they are that. They are educated, they are intelligent and happy to submit because of their faith. If you try to tell them not to and give your reasons however logical they may be, it will be dismissed as heresy. So the point is, if they are comfortable and agreeable, who are we from a different faith or with no faith even, to say they are wrong. Every different faith has something which we can pick bones at. And because Islam does not allow dissent, similarly it's not our purview to question them for accepting it as it is.

The only thing we can say, well if you're comfortable with thee edicts well and goodonya. But while we accept these practises of yours, similarly you must allow us to do things differently. And if you come to our society, we will give you space but your observance of your creed cannot interfere in the way our society is set.

As for your analogy to Nazism, that's a different matter isn't it? If the Nazis won the war and dominates society today, those who do not, will be considered stupid and a lot of other things. The victors write the history when it comes to war.

I'm not saying I disagree entirely with the point you're making, we may and will find some of the Islamic edicts daft and cannot fathom why people follow them. But it's their choice to make not ours.

[MadAmster]

As I have said earlier, The Queen, Merkel, Mayhem all cover their heads when they visit a Muslim country. They do so out of respect for local custom. Political leaders who visit Israel don the Keppel out of respect for local custom.

Western Europe is an open society where seeing someone's face is a local custom.

Can anybody explain to me why we respect others' customs but, when they come here, they don't respect ours? While you're at it, explain to me why we should accept it......

[Manofpride]

As I have said earlier, The Queen, Merkel, Mayhem all cover their heads when they visit a Muslim country. They do so out of respect for local custom. Political leaders who visit Israel don the Keppel out of respect for local custom.

Western Europe is an open society where seeing someone's face is a local custom.

Can anybody explain to me why we respect others' customs but, when they come here, they don't respect ours? While you're at it, explain to me why we should accept it......

We shouldn't accept it but while the Country is full of do gooders it will never change, we are supposed to be equals, not a chance. This Country is to afraid to speak in fear of offending. We daren't even fly the Union Jack!

[Ram59]

It's strange how we attack the BBC for NEGOTIATING cheaper contracts with women TV presenters, but we allow muslim men to treat their women like a lump of meat that belongs to them.

[ramAnag]

We shouldn't accept it but while the Country is full of do gooders it will never change, we are supposed to be equals, not a chance. This Country is to afraid to speak in fear of offending. We daren't even fly the Union Jack!

The problem with the flag, MoP, both Union Jack and Cross of St. George, is that they have been hijacked by the far right.
First the National Front, then the BNP and more recently Tommy Robinson and his thugs along with countless other football hooligans have taken to using both flags as emblems of their ‘organisations’ and beliefs.
I am patriotic to the extent that I’ll support England/GB in all sporting occasions and I am proud of some of our non sporting achievements over the centuries and many of the things we can offer the rest of the World, but I am sure I am not alone in feeling uncomfortable associating myself with a flag that has been besmirched in the way that it has over the last fifty years or so.

I’d like to see Tommy Robinson receive a sword somewhere GUNTERYY36...but not in the form of any knighthood. The man is an irrelevant troublemaking thug imo and it is perhaps better if our ‘conversation’ is at an end.