OT - Boris Johnson and the Freedom of Speech

[GUNTERYY36]

I think you're generalising a wee bit too far. No doubt you have a point - that these women might be dumb or illiterate and even too submissive. But I believe to claim many or even a majority is a wee bit too far.
Before you do, you must however consider the way the religion is practised or at the very least observed or supposed be observed by their adherents.

Islam is a religion that believes in submission. In fact I think the word Islam or Muslim, means submission. A Muslim is supposed to submit himself to Allah, the Almighty. The basic principle in Islam is to believe there's no other God except Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger. As such the words and teachings of Muhammad is to be observed and imitated as far as possible. The Quran itself is not a book which you can read cover to cover, it's a book of revelations made to Muhammad by God through the Angel Gabriel. To understand these verses, you need to read it in conjunction with the Hadiths (Muhammad's teachings) or some other similar book.

Muhammad himself says in these books that Allah is Supreme and not to be questioned. His dictates are to be followed without question. And man can never fully understand the reasons of Allah's dictates. You're supposed to follow them. Now I'm not gonna into the semantics of these. Whether it's true or logical, whether any Angel of God appeared to Muhammad and whether it's a prudent thing for Muslims to question their religion. All these is beside the point, Muslims are taught to follow these teachings (of course problems arise with interpretations and how a narrow reading might justify certain acts of violence etc). But the basic principle stands, they are supposed to follow the commands listed in the Quran.

So it's not just the women, the same is for men as well. And a very clear majority of Muslims are very happy and content to follow these instructions without question. Many Muslim if not most Muslim women are therefore comfortable and agreeable to it. So when you say:

Indeed, since many are illiterate, they are uninformed rather than lacking in intelligence. Others are unwilling to examine their faith, too ready to (ironically) submit to their lords and masters here on earth and extremely confrontational.

It's not the case that they are that. They are educated, they are intelligent and happy to submit because of their faith. If you try to tell them not to and give your reasons however logical they may be, it will be dismissed as heresy. So the point is, if they are comfortable and agreeable, who are we from a different faith or with no faith even, to say they are wrong. Every different faith has something which we can pick bones at. And because Islam does not allow dissent, similarly it's not our purview to question them for accepting it as it is.

The only thing we can say, well if you're comfortable with thee edicts well and goodonya. But while we accept these practises of yours, similarly you must allow us to do things differently. And if you come to our society, we will give you space but your observance of your creed cannot interfere in the way our society is set.

As for your analogy to Nazism, that's a different matter isn't it? If the Nazis won the war and dominates society today, those who do not, will be considered stupid and a lot of other things. The victors write the history when it comes to war.

I'm not saying I disagree entirely with the point you're making, we may and will find some of the Islamic edicts daft and cannot fathom why people follow them. But it's their choice to make not ours.

Well researched and a good read. I would just add though that what I said about illiteracy was probably ambiguous. I believe that half the world's muslims cannot read or write. Not specifically UK muslims. Also don't women go to hell if they nag their husbands too much? (Not quite the way you would have put it!).

Ultimately, you're right. It's their choice. But if they don't wise up and learn they won't be receiving a piece of Paradise's epicurean action then maybe they'll be less willing to submit to their menfolk here on earth.

[GUNTERYY36]

Haven’t ‘upset’ me in the slightest GUNTERYY and no apologies necessary.

You are entitled to your opinion and if you choose to look up to and applaud the likes of Tommy Robinson that’s up to you.
The facts are however that the man you want to be given a knighthood is a far right activist with convictions for Contempt of Court, Breach of the Peace, Mortgage Fraud and - having been banned from entering the U.S. because of a drugs offence - attempting to enter the U.S. on a false passport.
That might be the stuff of heroes to you but in my world it makes him a complete arse and, because people like you appear to be taken in by him, an increasingly dangerous one at that.

, I didn't say he was an 'hero' of mine. I don't have any heros. But I like to see justice done and when a man is thrown in prison (and then tortured by prison officers) for exercising his right to free speech and giving an opinion, that doesn't seem like cricket to me. Even he should be allowed to give an opinion without fear of a jail sentence. Also I'd like to know just what 'contempt of court' is and why in this case the 'offender' has received a lengthy jail sentence because of it. 'Mortagage fraud' is a joke and clearly designed to detain a political prisoner). Maybe we'll see Anjem Choudary charged for a litter offence but I won't hold my breath.

Far right activist? There's quite a few of them these days. If you grumble about the number of refugees sweeping into the country you're the reincarnation of Hitler.

[ramAnag]

, I didn't say he was an 'hero' of mine. I don't have any heros. But I like to see justice done and when a man is thrown in prison (and then tortured by prison officers) for exercising his right to free speech and giving an opinion, that doesn't seem like cricket to me. Even he should be allowed to give an opinion without fear of a jail sentence. Also I'd like to know just what 'contempt of court' is and why in this case the 'offender' has received a lengthy jail sentence because of it. 'Mortagage fraud' is a joke and clearly designed to detain a political prisoner). Maybe we'll see Anjem Choudary charged for a litter offence but I won't hold my breath.

Far right activist? There's quite a few of them these days. If you grumble about the number of refugees sweeping into the country you're the reincarnation of Hitler.

So maybe ‘hero’ was the wrong word but you suggested he should receive a knighthood which in turn implies a huge degree of admiration on your part.
I fully accept that there is a proper need for a fair and reasoned debate on the subject of immigration into this country. What I will never accept is that it should be conducted via an agenda determined by a far right racist loudmouth like Tommy Robinson and the EDL.
If you still don’t recognise my terminology then have a look at not just his ‘record’ but also his tweets. The man is a bigoted menace imo and the last person you should look to if we are to have a serious, sensible and sensitive debate in this country.

P.S. This ‘tortured by prison officers’ you refer to. What form is it alleged to have taken and how do you know?

[Manofpride]

What happened to free speech, like I mentioned before we are supposed to be equals, what a laugh!
I'm not a keen fan of Tommy at all but we all know he was wrongly jailed.

[GUNTERYY36]

What happened to free speech, like I mentioned before we are supposed to be equals, what a laugh!
I'm not a keen fan of Tommy at all but we all know he was wrongly jailed.

We shouldn't be surprised he was wrongly jailed. Not only does he 'offend' those who are acutely offended but has an irritating habit of of highlighting their beliefs. Robinson will always carry top weight as people would much rather call him names, e.g. menace, bigot, racist, loud mouth, etc. than debate what he says. Much easier to shut him up.

[Trickytreesreds]

We shouldn't be surprised he was wrongly jailed. Not only does he 'offend' those who are acutely offended but has an irritating habit of of highlighting their beliefs. Robinson will always carry top weight as people would much rather call him names, e.g. menace, bigot, racist, loud mouth, etc. than debate what he says. Much easier to shut him up.

If the government/Police/Social services stopped trying to cover things up. Then people like TR would have no platform.
What is it that these people feel they need to hide from the rest of us?

The racist/xenophobe/islamophobia jibes are designed to make you shut up.
TR refused to and the government has gone out of its way to harrass/jail him and family.
This is scary stuff really and goes against the grain of British democracy. ]
If we have a problem with a culture in this country, then we should deal with it. If said culture cannot change, then it needs out lawing.
I don't have a problem with Muslims. I have a problem with Islam(the religion)
Islam depicts Muhammad as the supreme being and followers should try to emulate him. This same "supreme being", was a war monger who killed/enslaved. He also took a child for a wife, then had *** with her when she was 9. Its all there in the Qu'ran and Muslims are expected to follow that.

There is a consensus among Islam followers that what has happened was the girls fault and that comes from the teachings.
TR highlights this and the law has tried to gag him wrongly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3X5Lqf3e1A

[Ram59]

So we're not to do anything about Muslim's treatment of womenfolk because a majority of them accept it.

If that's the case why did we give women the vote, why did we get the *** equality act and pay them the same for the same job as men? Why did we allow gays to be open in their relationships? A majority of all those affected were happy with their circumstances, but the civilised society that we live in decided that these people were not being treated fairly.

If Muslims want to live in our country then they should be prepared to live by our practises when required. This doesn't mean that the wearing of the Burka should be banned wholesale because we live in a free world and you should be free to wear what you want. But in certain circumstances because of security or safety or other situations which aren't compatible to our way of life, then the burka should not be worn.

Next we'll be allowing them to be punished under sharia law rather than our own judicial system.

Wether our not it is accepted, the wearing of the Burka, like fgm is a crime against female Muslims. Just as women not having the vote or equal pay or gays having equal rights, were last century.

If no one had acted then, would we still be living with those unacceptable practises now?

[MadAmster]

Here's my take on the Tommy stitch up. He was, good n proper.

Not that I think he was innocent. He was outside a courtroom, reporting on a case which had reporting restrictions in place. He ignored them and broadcasted anyway. IMO, the police were right to arrest him. Where it all went pear shaped was that the judge didn't take the evidence seriously. Admitted himself that he hadn't given the video more than a cursory glance......

I think that he will get found guilty again, quite rightly too, for contempt of court. The suspended 3 month sentence from his previous (2017) contempt case will kick in. He will get a couple of months on top of that and then, taking into account time served, he will walk out of court a free, but convicted, man.

[ramAnag]

MA, with you being one of the more reasonable on here I’m genuinely confused. On the one hand you suggest TR was stitched up, a few lines later you suggest he will be found guilty again and ‘quite rightly too’. Which do you agree with? If he was ‘stitched up’ - which imo he wasn’t - how can you applaud his being found guilty again?

Ram59, I totally accept your criticisms of the inequalities implicit within the Muslim faith and share your concern, but Muslims are not alone. The vast majority of organised religions have always displayed a very questionable attitude to women and Catholics still adhere to what, imo, is the ridiculous belief that ‘only a baptised man validly receives sacred ordination’. We surely need to educate not alienate.

Tricky...as ever you are spouting your usual one eyed nonsense in a thinly disguised anti Muslim rant.
So...why just single out Muhammad in the area of what are now, quite rightly, considered to be inappropriate relationships?
What about Richard II for instance who took Isabella of Valois as his wife at the age of 6 I believe? Like your own example...historically irrelevant I agree, but let’s look at more recent white western icons...Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis or Bill Wyman for example, who all displayed a staggering penchant for under age young girls...and what does that tell us about modern day western beliefs? Absolutely nothing.
As for rejecting Islam because it includes a belief in the ‘supreme being’, what about the Bible which states very clearly (Exodus 20:3) that God commands ‘You shall have no other God than me’? How far removed is that from suggesting a belief in Allah as a supreme being?

Finally your closing comment about there being a ‘consensus amongst Muslim followers’ about it ‘being the girls fault’ is just bollux.
There will always be low lifes amongst all communities, including religious ones, who seek to abdicate moral responsibility in favour of satisfying their own needs...Catholic priests anyone? In this particular instance those within the grooming gangs were 100% responsible for what happened imo, but bad parenting of and behaviour by the victims was also a factor. That’s not an excuse, just a fact that I have first hand professional experience of. Doesn’t lessen the wrongdoing of the perpetrators at all, or those who tried to cover it all up, but to say the majority of Muslims consider it to have been the girls fault is just untrue and the sort of lie that is aimed at perpetuating divisiveness within this country.

[Andy_Faber]

RA I think you need to read MA's post again I think his summing up was spot-on, and the whole incident reflected equally badly on TR himself and those in positions of law and order

On a more general point, would you at least consider the notion that 'the Muslim issue' has a demographic not a lot different to 'The Brexit issue' and 'the Trump issue' - the supposed elite predominantly siding one way, the man and woman in the street, partly through the breaking down of traditional means of mass-communication, siding the other way. That's certainly my observation, this forum being typical in it's leaning, although actually one of the best in its lines of argument, yours included