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Thread: Now do the sums. What it's cost us and what could have been

  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    12,798
    Quote Originally Posted by McCullochisGod View Post
    Probably rotting away somewhere...with his god awful other half
    A very sweeping statement from a bitterly obsessed person.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    6,265
    Quote Originally Posted by seriouspie View Post
    Thank you - and a safe journey home.
    Ha ha thanks Serious, have a good day mate.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    6,265
    Quote Originally Posted by McCullochisGod View Post
    You are obviously ITK Michel. Are you an ex employee? If you are you will know a lot more than you are revealing. I believe our club is in a dire situation and has been for some time despite what AH puts out on social media, reality is starting to bite.
    Ha ha the reality that we've spent hundreds of thousands more than probably all clubs in our division, how is that reality biting in regards to the club being in trouble? At least Michel states he's not anti AH just concerned about the club which is fair enough, you a sound like someone who throws darts at a picture of AH wearing a McParland mask. Has your son found a new club yet?

    Great post Old pie BTW.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Old_pie View Post

    The club is funded by loans made by Paragon. We are not in a position to know what the terms of these loans are but offsetting losses from one entity (here NCFC) by loans from a profitable entity (Paragon) just makes business sense. It reduces Paragon's corporation tax liability for a start. Those that would have AH pay the money in directly do not appreciate that if AH took that extra money out of Paragon in the form of salary there would be National Insurance and Tax to pay, and also Dividend tax if he took the money out that way. It makes business sense to do it the way he is. It doesn't make business sense to donate money (usually in the form of increasing shareholding) beyond the minimum required to meet any FFP rules etc. Should Notts ever start trading at a profit then those tax from those profits would immediately be offset by the losses. And if the club is sold (ah ah) the negotiations would be about the amount of that debt, if any, that would be paid off or written off. Otherwise the money and the interest will never be expected to be paid off by NCFC - that is not the purpose loaning the money.

    I don't know the situation regarding shareholders at Paragon except that the company is generally accepted as being AH's so he is the major shareholder. If he owns more than 50% then what he says goes. If Paragon were to call in the debt then Notts would be back to square one as occurred when RT declined to fund it any further. Paragon would get nothing if the club went into administration because anything tangible would be swallowed up by HMRC and the Administrators, there would be nothing left.


    He has shown little acumen in running club successfully.

    . COYP.
    Good post indeed. One issue I take up is around the loans and investment options available to Paragon you point out. Whilst you are right in saying all of those costs, taxes etc would paybale if AH was paid a wage or dividend and so that is why he loans if frome Paragon to Notts, doesn't really stack up, as he could simply write a sponsorship contract from Paragon to Notts for 3 years at

    £x Amount per season. This would also reduce Paragons profit tax liability just the same way. But it would mean Notts debts are not mounted up. I know which I would prefer as a Notts Fan.

    Paragon has a few Charges listed against it too which is important when considering your point about whether Mr Hardy is the controlling shareholder or not. That point becomes moot as the charges are pretty comprehensive, they are listed on companies house.

    Your final point is very well and succinctly made. I have no issue with a benefactor like AH OWNING our club. HIs investment is incredibly important, generous and needed. The real problem we have as people who care for our club and future is that he is also RUNNING our club. Massive difference.

    The richest men in the world can all afford to own a formula 1 race team. It's the ones who fund them, but allow experienced and qualified team directors and drivers to perform and run the teams week in week out that are succesful. Alan has admitted to numerous mistakes in 18 months and little suggests he is capable ( or wants) to learn or change. That's not being critical it is just how it is. I would prefer our club to be RUN by someone with runs on the board, proven ability and experience in football. If Alan was a manager we would be howling for his sacking based on performances. But because he is the money man we tolerate his errors and shortcomings. it is an interesting observation and situation indeed and I'm not sure anyone has the answer to how we solve the conundrum. I certainly don't.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by McCullochisGod View Post
    You are obviously ITK Michel. Are you an ex employee? If you are you will know a lot more than you are revealing. I believe our club is in a dire situation and has been for some time despite what AH puts out on social media, reality is starting to bite.
    I'm around the place. My point all along has been that the club is only in a Dire situaton if AH either chooses to stop propping it up month on month financially, or Paragon PLC stop propping it up financially with loans, or if AH has no choice and HAS to stop propping it up ( all rivers of gold have their limits), or we are relegated from the league.

    all of those scenarios are possible, and based on where we were when AH took over, one could argue more possible than they were 18 months ago. Of course the more optimistic could say they are less probable than when he took over, that is all a matter of opinion.

    Regardless, the stability of our club depends on a few relatively variable factors that we have little control over whilst the debt is high and rising. That is is the basis of my concern.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    5,693
    Hi Guys, Feeb here again, some interesting views and comments there, thanks for the replys.
    But I dont know about you lot, but all i have been saying for years as a long time pies fan.
    is one word on this subject of manager swapping , and that word is... Stability

    Do we Never learn? when are we going to Lean!
    first Scardino then Munto then Trew come in with their promises of successive promotions and success,

    All we want is one thing. To be able to have a team, to support that we can take our kids to and eventually our grandchildren.
    after the turmoil we have been through,( see aforementioned chairmen above), promise me promotion and it goes in one ear and then out of the other.
    I am not taken in any more by a Businessman plans and hopes. or success.
    it made me groan When i heard Alan Hardy Setting a timetable for promotion, I thought we had got rid of Ray Trew and his Schedules.
    Not him as well ! i exclaimed.

    When we had Mad Dog as Manager , i was sitting there in the Kop stand, enjoying it, we were 7th in Div one and i commented to a friend, i would be happy with this, and this style of Football, and he also agreed.

    Not much to Ask,
    But no later Trew sacked him as he wasn't meeting his aspirations of promotion.

    So heres your Brief from just one fan AH
    your doing a smashing Job, i would rather have you than Trew or those mentioned however look where we are now, by hiring and firing mangers who didn't conform to your business plan, timetable!

    when all most of us wanted , was the security to watch our team play league football in 3-4-5 years time, without fear of bankruptcy at a reasonable level. in other words STABILITY.
    please put that on the bottom line of your cost analysis sheet.

    and Come on You Pies!

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    2,852
    Quote Originally Posted by feeb View Post
    Hi Guys, Feeb here again, some interesting views and comments there, thanks for the replys.
    But I dont know about you lot, but all i have been saying for years as a long time pies fan.
    is one word on this subject of manager swapping , and that word is... Stability

    Do we Never learn? when are we going to Lean!
    first Scardino then Munto then Trew come in with their promises of successive promotions and success,

    All we want is one thing. To be able to have a team, to support that we can take our kids to and eventually our grandchildren.
    after the turmoil we have been through,( see aforementioned chairmen above), promise me promotion and it goes in one ear and then out of the other.
    I am not taken in any more by a Businessman plans and hopes. or success.
    it made me groan When i heard Alan Hardy Setting a timetable for promotion, I thought we had got rid of Ray Trew and his Schedules.
    Not him as well ! i exclaimed.

    When we had Mad Dog as Manager , i was sitting there in the Kop stand, enjoying it, we were 7th in Div one and i commented to a friend, i would be happy with this, and this style of Football, and he also agreed.

    Not much to Ask,
    But no later Trew sacked him as he wasn't meeting his aspirations of promotion.

    So heres your Brief from just one fan AH
    your doing a smashing Job, i would rather have you than Trew or those mentioned however look where we are now, by hiring and firing mangers who didn't conform to your business plan, timetable!

    when all most of us wanted , was the security to watch our team play league football in 3-4-5 years time, without fear of bankruptcy at a reasonable level. in other words STABILITY.
    please put that on the bottom line of your cost analysis sheet.

    and Come on You Pies!
    I think the problem Feeb at the moment none of us are really happy in League 2, one it's the worse league (try telling yer kids that lol) and secondly it's a bit to close to none league football for comfort as we are feeling at the moment . I think as you say if we were comfortable in L1 playing ok football then most of us would be happy with that with the hope we might have a good season sooner or later with a sniff of the championship, which now a days is a bit of a dream cos there's some big clubs and the thought of the away days bigger home crowds would be enough to keep us happy plugging away in L1, L2 just feels like we are miles off.
    Hardy like any other owner by his own admission I think has been sucked into this aswell instead of trying to balance the books, the issue in football, an obvious one, is that not everyone can be successful, just 4 teams out of 24 in our case and there's so many variables of how things can go well and not so well and I think he's learning that at the hard end.
    Last edited by matt_magpie; 11-09-2018 at 02:25 PM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by michelinnotts View Post
    you make a really good point. I did say in another post that our situation is the lot of CLUBS, not just our club. there is a huge variation from top to bottom in terms of what clubs are losing every season. How much they are losing and how much CASH reserves their owners have and are prepared to put into the club is how we judge how stable the clubs are. There are clubs in league 1 and 2 that actually are sustainable without large cash injections from benefactor owners and interestingly ( perhaps coincidently at present , perhaps not) some of those are peforming well on the pitch, Accrington Stanley, Newport, Wimbledon, Exeter, Wycombe are all sitting prettier than us at present.

    Without being too dramatic, we are one of the largest spenders in league 2 and would be above mid table on spend in league 1 this season. AH said today he spent £750K OVER budget last season, that's not just a few mistakes, that's absolutely shockingly poor management. Yes he says he has learned, well I guess we need to hope so because that just isn't sustainable as not only did he OVER spend 3/4 of what some of those clubs above us on the pyramid spend in TOTAL, but that spend saw us sitting rock bottom of the league table.

    So yes, our lot is not uncommon among EFL clubs , but we are currently the worst of a bad lot. We are the worst in terms of spend V ladder position.

    for some idea there is a list below of average weekly player wage at all clubs last season.

    Accrington Stanley £635
    Barnet £674
    Cambridge United £900
    Carlisle United £1,115
    Cheltenham Town £789
    Chesterfield £1,181
    Colchester United £1,353
    Coventry City £1,104
    Crawley Town £940
    Crewe Alexandra £919
    Exeter City £995
    Forest Green Rovers £1,338
    Grimsby Town £1,060
    Lincoln City £1,712
    Luton Town £2,101
    Mansfield Town £1,490
    Morecambe £698
    Newport County £747
    Notts County £1,428
    Port Vale £991
    Stevenage £1,240
    Swindon Town £1,381
    Wycombe Wanderers £1,137
    Yeovil Town £1,044
    Accrington are subsidised by Andy Holt, the other 4 teams you mention are all fan owned with the emphasis more on players buying into the club and community aspect than extortionate wages

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    1,465
    Quote Originally Posted by Old_pie View Post
    On what basis do you believe the club is in a dire situation? What is starting to bite?
    Call me old fashioned Old Pie but being rooted to the bottom of league 2, conceding goals at will, £750k over spent on a load of crap that will be difficult to change and an owner who talks utter bull seems pretty dire to me! I'll keep throwing darts for sure, hit the bulls eye with the Paul Hart appointment long before it came out in the open though. The reality that we are in serious trouble is starting to bite hence our saviour has gone into hiding on social media, something he should have done months ago.

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