OT: What a pillock

[BigFatPie]

Right, here’s what you wrote:

“that one (the one in 2016 – Leave/Remain) will probably be overturned by a People’s Referendum in 2019, particularly in the light of increasing evidence of Russian interference.”

So, you think that firstly there “WILL PROBABLY” be another referendum “in 2019” and that the 2016 decision (to Leave) “WILL PROBABLY BE OVERTURNED” by that Referendum and that “increasing evidence of Russian interference” will help to overturn the 2016 vote.

So, you state the 2016 decision (to Leave) “will probably be overturned by a People’s Referendum in 2019”. I’m willing to bet money against that happening. Are you?

Also, wtf is a “People’s Referendum”? How is that different to a “Referendum”.

Also, still waiting for your evidence of Russian interference. So far Driller’s covered for you with something that’s “anecdotal” and something that’s “not concrete as yet”. What’s yours?

Why should I provide you with evidence? What am I, your research assistant? You’ve proved yourself totally immune to the evidence around Brexit so I’ll be f00ked if I’m providing it for you.

Do I think a another vote, People’s or otherwise, is likely in 2019? Yes, the numbers in the HoC and the lack of support for Chequers make it almost inevitable imo. Do I want to have a bet on it with you? No thanks.

[the_anticlough]

That’s why I think ‘my side’ are making a tactical mistake fighting for a second referendum now. They should be pushing to have one agreed for four and five years when the reality is clear and demographics are clearly on our side.

Yes, the demographics added to the basic economic and geographic realities means that the UK will most probably be an EU member in say, 2028. But those 'tactics' are more Nolan than Guardiola. Never underestimate the power of the propaganda machine here, which will paint being the 51st state of America as the only viable option, despite whatever
destruction it wreaks on our working lives, NHS, environment, social cohesion etc...

The demographics have changed already and now is the time to challenge a Russian-won, illegally funded vote based on a pack of lies peddled by Sun, Mail et al representing dark forces that have very different wishes for our children than we do.

The time to challenge this big giant con trick is in the next six months before Murdoch, de Pfeffel Rees-Mogg etc get their way and ruin this country forever.

[magpie_mania]

Well, being a remoaners that’s not a big surprise.

So give us some reasons why we should be optimistic based on negotiations to date.

[the_anticlough]

You have to agree with Ress-Mogg on one thing - it will be 50 years before any benefits of Brexit emerge.
So, while we're worse off people should campaign to reverse this nonsense this year, in five years, every other year, whatever it takes to
restore a country we can be proud of, not one filled with hatred and poverty.

[drillerpie]

Ok, there’s not much meat on that Russian interference bone so we’ll go with the overseas voters.

First, I don’t think it was “millions” of Brits who were affected by the overseas voter rule:
“700,000 British expats will not be able to vote in EU referendum.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ld-be-a-disas/

2nd, that 700 to 800,000 weren’t “barred from voting”, they simply didn’t qualify under the 15 Year Rule that has been around for a long time. The Commonwealth citizens were only allowed to vote if they were in the country at the time. The 15 year rule applies to all general elections as well and has done for years. I have a friend here in NZ (millennial as it happens) who went to the UK, did get the vote and he voted to Remain. If I spend too much time in NZ I’ll lose the right to vote under that 15 year rule. These are simply the rules of “enfranchisement” at the moment. It’s a debate to be had whether it should be changed.

I’ll just throw in another couple of things:

A few Remainers on here have complained that some Leavers live abroad for most of the time (their reasons for complaining are their own) but they can’t have it both ways. Your use of the word “disenfranchisement” seems to indicate you think it’s an injustice that Brits abroad be subject to the 15 Year Rule. Do you think the rule should be scrapped?

Lastly, just while I’m on a grumpy middle aged fart run, that millennial mate of mine was complaining constantly how difficult it was for him, as a Kiwi, to obtain a visa for the UK and that it “should be easier and he should be able to stay longer because NZ helped Brits out during the war.” It was a real thorn in his side. But still he voted Remain without ever connecting the UK’s being inside the EU as being a major cause of the thing annoying him. Also you can see from him that it’s not just old Brit Dad’s Army Leaver types who invoke the spirit of WW2 to justify their vote – at least one millennial Remainer has done it too.

Plenty of meat on the Russia thing, be my guest.

There were 800,000 Brits in Europe who weren't allowed to vote, that's pretty much 800,000 remain votes right there. Then there are millions more British expats living in non-EU countries who were denied the vote, hard to say how they would've voted.


Any Jamaicans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc living in the UK were eligible to vote. It has been mentioned on here several times (by leavers) that Asian voters voted largely to leave because they want visas for their non-EU friends and relatives, so that's two massive strokes of luck for the Leave campaign - almost a million Remain voting Brits cut out the system, plus a large community of Leave voting non - Brits eligible to vote. Bingo.

I can actually understand the 15 year rule in terms of general elections because if you don't live in the UK then it's not really your business, but if you're a Briton living in the EU and Britain has a referendum on whether to leave the EU then it's very much your business.

David Cameron promised to remove the 15 year rule in his 2015 election manifesto, the same manifesto that promised the referendum, but he didn't do it.

[drillerpie]

Yes, the demographics added to the basic economic and geographic realities means that the UK will most probably be an EU member in say, 2028. But those 'tactics' are more Nolan than Guardiola. Never underestimate the power of the propaganda machine here, which will paint being the 51st state of America as the only viable option, despite whatever
destruction it wreaks on our working lives, NHS, environment, social cohesion etc...

The demographics have changed already and now is the time to challenge a Russian-won, illegally funded vote based on a pack of lies peddled by Sun, Mail et al representing dark forces that have very different wishes for our children than we do.

The time to challenge this big giant con trick is in the next six months before Murdoch, de Pfeffel Rees-Mogg etc get their way and ruin this country forever.

The Mail now has a pro EU editor so that's another million and half people who no longer have a daily stream of anti EU propaganda.

[BigFatPie]

You need to read what people post!

I said I did not like the idea of a Federal Europe not that were currently part of a Federal Europe.
I do think that this is where the EU project will end up.

41 years between the 1975 and 2016 referendums but you think 1 year after leaving we should have another referendum.
Democracy at it's finest!

There are lots of countries outside of the EU that seem to be successful why do you not think the UK can do the same?

I don’t think we should have another referendum 1 year after we leave, I think we should have one before we leave, based on the proposed terms of departure.

There are loads of successful countries who aren’t in the EU, by virtue of them not being in Europe. The tiny minority of countries in Europe who aren’t in the EU have complex trade deals with the EU, but don’t have any say in the laws governing the EU itself.

[crazyfists]

What is the price worth paying do you think?

And, what are the long term opportunities?

Ha ha I see old pie hasn't answered, please will a brexiteer tell us of the fantastic life we'll lead in a generations time? You all like to quote this magical time period and that if we just get through the next thirty or so years then life in Britian will be some kind of utopia but no one will say what exactly we'll all benefit from. Work will still go offshore to the cheapest countries so the bosses can get richer as usual, we'll still have lost our biggest trade partner for some fabled new trade deals with x,y and z which won't make up the shortfall in our economy. It was funny that this vote to leave was meant to benefit the man on the street, from where I sit us ordinary folk are just going to get poorer. Still all those who voted leave and are sat on their nice nest eggs in retirement I'm sure will be joining us in the gutter...........

[AltyPie]

Any Jamaicans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc living in the UK were eligible to vote. It has been mentioned on here several times (by leavers) that Asian voters voted largely to leave because they want visas for their non-EU friends and relatives, so that's two massive strokes of luck for the Leave campaign - almost a million Remain voting Brits cut out the system, plus a large community of Leave voting non - Brits eligible to vote. Bingo.

I can actually understand the 15 year rule in terms of general elections because if you don't live in the UK then it's not really your business, but if you're a Briton living in the EU and Britain has a referendum on whether to leave the EU then it's very much your business.

Just on the BAME voters in 2016:
This summary of polls :
https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/0...voted-and-why/ , states:
“Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters.”
And this article before the vote predicted the results above:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...figures-brexit,
it states:
“.. research by the British Election Study suggests that about two-thirds of their black, Asian and ethnic minority (BAME) counterparts are in favour of remaining in the EU.”

Channel 4 did a poll backing the above figures up also.
Do you have any poll or other evidence backing up your statement that “Asian voters voted largely to leave”? Seems like the opposite from the poll data above.

On the 15 year rule & Brexit, yes sure those Brits in the EU would probably vote to Remain. But perhaps many Brits outside the EU would vote to Leave because they believe their profession or business would be better served with easier access to the English speaking Commonwealth Realms? Why is that not as good a reason for them to be given a vote on Brexit as the one you present for the EU dwellers? In addition, people are always mobile these days (I’ve worked in about 10 countries to date) so someone in New Zealand or Australia this month could be working back in the UK or France next month (this happens a lot in my profession), so how would you administrate that?
Anyway, I'd agree it’s a debate to be had rather than a clear black & white thing.

[JoePass]

So give us some reasons why we should be optimistic based on negotiations to date.

Because the unelected morons led by a drunk will give us a good deal because without one they will suffer worse than us. Look at unemployment rates across the EU compared to the UK, we know how to run a County, they know how to top up their pensions.