Saiz This Season - Maturing Maverick ?

[spaldy]

The recruitment of MB pretty much negates any poor signings he's made. It's much easier to sit back and do little or nothing that it is to go out there and put your behind on the line. he's done that is spades.

[klix]

The recruitment of MB pretty much negates any poor signings he's made. It's much easier to sit back and do little or nothing that it is to go out there and put your behind on the line. he's done that is spades.

Pep,Poch,and Simone look up to this guy, credit to who got him.

[MrsORichSenior]

I think it's fair to point out that Ortas position to wheel and deal had financial restraints previously albeit on a flexible reviewable five year plan ...........

Flinty states - ........ 'cheap buys' ....... 'wasted money' ........
Agree as Ortas speculate to accumulate brief on a tight Rad budget was in essence younger players on below average Championship salaries pre loaded with incentives ranging from starting appearances,set personal targets & league position criteria.

Flinty states - 'Successfully recruited' ......
Agree as a club we've not done to bad with a wage structure well behind.Villa,Derby,Wednesday,Forest,Reading,Brum,B lackburn,Bristol - last season Fulham & Cardiff shelled out double our budget yet none have a youth policy as good as ours up and running yet.
Some would/could argue we've been successful with limited risk/loss at the end of the day which the club balance sheet hopefully shall show regardless of the few shipped out in the hope of some financial return.

We're not a Wolves (money with no youth set up) and certainly not a Cardiff (proven journeymen players with no youth set up) and thank God we don't have their debts either.
The answer maybe is the positives in between those above two set ups for promotion and PL stability one could argue - for sure a damn good Manager makes all the difference.

MOT

[WTF11]

Got to agree with almost everything you say here WTF, but again, I have to question you're ongoing derision of Orta. I think we need to add Douglas, Bamford and Roberts (plus Baker and Harrison) to the list of players he's successfully recruited...and yes he's wasted money, but on cheap buys, so not all that disastrous. AND we really should give him major credit for the small matter of recruiting Bielsa. It was Orta's vision...and his efforts that brought Bielsa here. I've also seen some vision of him celebrating our goals...which shows me he's a man of real passion.

Ok, I'll try to put my "I hate Orta" hat to one side, at least a little bit........

Of the additional player names you mention, I think the jury is still out on most (although I'll give you that few have had much game time, and what we have seen doesn't look bad), we will see if they can be added to those who have been worth the investment.

I don't quite understand (partly because there isn't much in the public domain to go on) just what part Orta had to do with Bielsas recruitment? Kinnear was quoted in various statements as to what type of individual was being sought to replace Heckingbottom, and as Bielsa was known to Orta it's not impossible to see him as being the oil that made the deal possible, but Vision and efforts? More likely the efforts were on the part of Radrizzani and Kinnear to engineer a financial deal that suited Bielsa, given their positions within the club, hardly something Orta would have constructed.

And even if that was true, what are we to make of the previous appointments, whats good for the goose etc? Mrs O makes the point in post #53 that "a damned good manager makes the difference", surely something that ALL the senior figures at the club, including Radrizzani, Kinnear and Orta, should have known when seeking a replacement for Monk?

Anyway, the current environment is very different, for whatever reason and whoever wants to, or should, take credit. Long may it continue.

[Flintadore]

[QUOTE=WTF11;39038832]Ok, I'll try to put my "I hate Orta" hat to one side, at least a little bit........

Of the additional player names you mention, I think the jury is still out on most (although I'll give you that few have had much game time, and what we have seen doesn't look bad), we will see if they can be added to those who have been worth the investment.

I don't quite understand (partly because there isn't much in the public domain to go on) just what part Orta had to do with Bielsas recruitment? Kinnear was quoted in various statements as to what type of individual was being sought to replace Heckingbottom, and as Bielsa was known to Orta it's not impossible to see him as being the oil that made the deal possible, but Vision and efforts? More likely the efforts were on the part of Radrizzani and Kinnear to engineer a financial deal that suited Bielsa, given their positions within the club, hardly something Orta would have constructed.

And even if that was true, what are we to make of the previous appointments, whats good for the goose etc? Mrs O makes the point in post #53 that "a damned good manager makes the difference", surely something that ALL the senior figures at the club, including Radrizzani, Kinnear and Orta, should have known when seeking a replacement for Monk?


Did a quick dig and found some quotes re Bielsa and Orta. I'd say Orta has some weaknesses (as do we all) but he was clearly instrumental in the appointment, if not the primary player, so kudos is deserved...and given by Radrizanni.


Victor Orta, Leeds’ director of football, knew Bielsa of old and did the early spadework to establish a meeting with Andrea Radrizzani, the first leg of an exhausting relay in which paperwork and phone calls bounced back and forward. Angus Kinnear, the club’s managing director, travelled with Orta to Argentina late last month and, after four days of discussions, established that Bielsa’s demands were financially viable.
https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....aven-1-9207939


That may be what Victor Orta is thinking now. Leeds United can’t hope for Guardiola or Pochettino, but why not aim for the teacher who taught them? Orta’s role in bringing Bielsa to Leeds is fascinating on its own. I’ve written before that, rather than the Machiavellian monster that has been portrayed at Middlesbrough and now Leeds, the soccer-obsessed journalist turned analysis-nerd is as socially awkward as that career path would suggest — and I speak with some experience there — and as benign. Orta was writing admiringly of Bielsa’s methods during the 2010 World Cup, and now, there Victor is, in a hotel conference suite in Mexico, negotiating to become Bielsa’s boss. Perhaps the worst thing we can say about Victor Orta is that he treats his job at Leeds United like a Football Manager save game come true. But if he manages to bring Bielsa to Leeds, that might also be the best thing.
https://www.thesquareball.net/leeds-...-major-bielsa/



“Easy to underestimate the effort that's gone into the Bielsa deal. For all the criticism of him (much of it deserved) Orta has been in the thick of it from the start.”
Phil Hay: June15

[Billyni]

I might need to be corrected, but Bielsa hasn't actually won much in his career.
But he's still our best shot at getting anywhere since Wilko and playing the best football since the short 'babies' era.
Whoever brought him here has definitely given the club and supporters the tonic that was needed.

[WTF11]

[QUOTE=Flintadore;39039164]

Ok, I'll try to put my "I hate Orta" hat to one side, at least a little bit........

Of the additional player names you mention, I think the jury is still out on most (although I'll give you that few have had much game time, and what we have seen doesn't look bad), we will see if they can be added to those who have been worth the investment.

I don't quite understand (partly because there isn't much in the public domain to go on) just what part Orta had to do with Bielsas recruitment? Kinnear was quoted in various statements as to what type of individual was being sought to replace Heckingbottom, and as Bielsa was known to Orta it's not impossible to see him as being the oil that made the deal possible, but Vision and efforts? More likely the efforts were on the part of Radrizzani and Kinnear to engineer a financial deal that suited Bielsa, given their positions within the club, hardly something Orta would have constructed.

And even if that was true, what are we to make of the previous appointments, whats good for the goose etc? Mrs O makes the point in post #53 that "a damned good manager makes the difference", surely something that ALL the senior figures at the club, including Radrizzani, Kinnear and Orta, should have known when seeking a replacement for Monk?


Did a quick dig and found some quotes re Bielsa and Orta. I'd say Orta has some weaknesses (as do we all) but he was clearly instrumental in the appointment, if not the primary player, so kudos is deserved...and given by Radrizanni.


Victor Orta, Leeds’ director of football, knew Bielsa of old and did the early spadework to establish a meeting with Andrea Radrizzani, the first leg of an exhausting relay in which paperwork and phone calls bounced back and forward. Angus Kinnear, the club’s managing director, travelled with Orta to Argentina late last month and, after four days of discussions, established that Bielsa’s demands were financially viable.
https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....aven-1-9207939


That may be what Victor Orta is thinking now. Leeds United can’t hope for Guardiola or Pochettino, but why not aim for the teacher who taught them? Orta’s role in bringing Bielsa to Leeds is fascinating on its own. I’ve written before that, rather than the Machiavellian monster that has been portrayed at Middlesbrough and now Leeds, the soccer-obsessed journalist turned analysis-nerd is as socially awkward as that career path would suggest — and I speak with some experience there — and as benign. Orta was writing admiringly of Bielsa’s methods during the 2010 World Cup, and now, there Victor is, in a hotel conference suite in Mexico, negotiating to become Bielsa’s boss. Perhaps the worst thing we can say about Victor Orta is that he treats his job at Leeds United like a Football Manager save game come true. But if he manages to bring Bielsa to Leeds, that might also be the best thing.
https://www.thesquareball.net/leeds-...-major-bielsa/



“Easy to underestimate the effort that's gone into the Bielsa deal. For all the criticism of him (much of it deserved) Orta has been in the thick of it from the start.”
Phil Hay: June15

I say again, if Orta had anything to do with Bielsa coming to Leeds, well done. Does that make him some.kind of messiah, errr, no.

[WTF11]

I might need to be corrected, but Bielsa hasn't actually won much in his career.
But he's still our best shot at getting anywhere since Wilko and playing the best football since the short 'babies' era.
Whoever brought him here has definitely given the club and supporters the tonic that was needed.

Perhaps Billy, he hasn't been in the right place at the right time. "Cometh the hour, cometh man", is probably just about the best strapline for where he and Leeds are at this moment in time.

[Flintadore]

[QUOTE=WTF11;39039300]

I say again, if Orta had anything to do with Bielsa coming to Leeds, well done. Does that make him some.kind of messiah, errr, no.

Definitely no Messiah...but he's an integral (and seemingly respected) part of a three person team with AR and AK, who have had a massive positive impact on our club. From the purchase of Elland Road, through to the appointment of Bielsa, they've shifted the club from 'Championship has-beens' to 'Premier League aspirants'. Everything they do smacks of Premiership intention. I think they're a damn good team.

[MrsORichSenior]

Saiz comments today ............ obviously he's been reading this thread


Saiz on his form this year compared to last .........
"I think this season I'm more collective. I'm less of an individual, I work more for the team. I don't score as many goals as I wish but I don't do the individual actions I used to do. I think I've improved on other aspects."
"This year all the players are playing better. We combine better with the teammates. We have a different style of play. We always control the game. We want to be the protagonist in each game.
Saiz on whether it's difficult without Hernandez, in terms of creative responsibility....
"When Pablo plays, I'm not always the player who receives the first pass. Pablo makes good movements to receive the first ball too. Of course I prefer that Pablo plays. I can have more freedom"
Saiz on the difficulties of last season ........
"Every year you have good moments and bad moments but when you play at Elland Road and you see all the fans supporting you, it gives you the strength to keep working and do better things.
Saiz admitted his motivation levels dropped last season when the play-offs got out of reach. Says he's been honest with himself about that. "It's a problem I can't have again."
Saiz says that last season, because opposition players didn't know him, he had more freedom. "This season I always have a marker on me. I'm always surrounded. This is football
"I feel better because Marcelo made the whole team be more aggressive from a football point of view. We're aggressive playing football. We trust each other more. Thanks to all this is I feel more safe and I'm less aggressive - apart from the football.

Mmmm, seems to answer OP question for sure - bet WTF11 can't wait for the Orta response

MOT