O/T Frack me

[sawmiller]

The problem with windpower is not how the turbines look or with 'political will'. It's with the fact that sometimes it isn't very windy. The same principle applies to solar. Renewable power has its place, but until there is an answer to how the country would get thorugh several weeks of still and overcast weather in mid-winter (which is by no means unusual) it isn't the answer.

several weeks of still weather in winter? really? This summer has been exceptional - nothing like it for decades. But winter? Even in the Vale of York where my stepson lives, fog unbroken for several weeks - I'll ask him, but suspect I know what the answer will be already...

[KerrAvon]

That's why i stated 'Variety' and making it accessible to all, we have the technology, even smaller amounts of generation will ease the burden on the national grid as a whole.

It’s the implications of variety that is the issue. If you have a system in which you plan for 20% of the country’s power needs to come from solar and wind, then you have to address the fact that it isn’t always sunny and windy, which means that you need 20% excess capacity in the non-renewable part of the mix. Either that or you increase the size of the country’ candle making industry.

Having a large amount of excess capacity in the non-renewable part of the mix lying around is very expensive and the cost will have to be met by someone.

As you increase the % that you wish to generate from renewables the problem becomes more acute.

[KerrAvon]

Certainly an option, as i've said, technology is moving at a rapid pace, particularly regarding battery power, when we've all got electric cars, and that is plugged in when we're home, maybe the charge left can be used when we need it, in the evening, and then charged up when we're sleeping, again, allowing the national grid to easily cope at peak times...

It certainly isn’t an option. The size and cost of the batteries that would be required is prohibitive. The UK government is putting money into battery technology research, but it is impossible to get around the basic physics of the issue.

You can’t use solar power to charge anything up while you are sleeping – unless you are nocturnal. That is the real issue with solar – it is at its most abundant on sunny summer days – exactly when demand for electricity is at its lowest. You could use wind overnight – if it’s windy. You may not be getting much sleeping done if you have the localised wind turbines that you mentioned in post 15, however – an issue with wind turbines is the noise that they can create.

[KerrAvon]

several weeks of still weather in winter? really? This summer has been exceptional - nothing like it for decades. But winter? Even in the Vale of York where my stepson lives, fog unbroken for several weeks - I'll ask him, but suspect I know what the answer will be already...

I imagine that your stepson has told you that the Vale of York is notoriously fog prone? It is, because of its geography – a bowl shaped area of land with several water sources.

The fact remains that overcast still weather in winter – when demand for electricity is at its highest – will create terrible problems for a power system that relies heavily on solar and wind - exceptional weather would create exceptional problems, but normal weather is more than capable of providing problems too. That is where fracking and the OP come in. We are potentially sitting upon an abundant source of energy.

[millmoormagic]

It certainly isn’t an option. The size and cost of the batteries that would be required is prohibitive. The UK government is putting money into battery technology research, but it is impossible to get around the basic physics of the issue.

You can’t use solar power to charge anything up while you are sleeping – unless you are nocturnal. That is the real issue with solar – it is at its most abundant on sunny summer days – exactly when demand for electricity is at its lowest. You could use wind overnight – if it’s windy. You may not be getting much sleeping done if you have the localised wind turbines that you mentioned in post 15, however – an issue with wind turbines is the noise that they can create.

Of course it's an option, as i've stated technology is coming on leaps and bounds, and who mentioned using solar while sleeping, i stated you could charge the car battery(which you've already depleted running it for the house in the evening) using national grid power, off peak, while sleeping....

As for "sitting on an abundant source of energy" yeh, we are, they call it coal, millions of tons of it are still under our feet, but you know what, i for one want us to stop burning fossil fuels, we're killing the planet, we need to use cleaner methods of power generation, and every little bit helps, even if it is a bit cloudy and still some days, and the turbine might by a bit noisy, time for you to get in the modern world kerr.

[sawmiller]

Yes I know all about winter fog as I used to live there But not still for several weeks I can assure you that - several days perhaps. The unresolved issue with fracking is twofold - firstly it is not guaranteed to be safe enough either during or once the operation has left site - still too many unanswered questions and problems - and secondly all fossil feels are finite - what are we going to do with our current supplies when they suddenly run out? we need to diversify now - including ways of reducing as far as we can our energy consumption. There is a much wider debate and issue which the OP did not mention - hmmm....🤫

[crashbang]

We need to frack.
Makes sense to me.
Fk the future.

[KerrAvon]

Of course it's an option, as i've stated technology is coming on leaps and bounds, and who mentioned using solar while sleeping, i stated you could charge the car battery(which you've already depleted running it for the house in the evening) using national grid power, off peak, while sleeping....

As for "sitting on an abundant source of energy" yeh, we are, they call it coal, millions of tons of it are still under our feet, but you know what, i for one want us to stop burning fossil fuels, we're killing the planet, we need to use cleaner methods of power generation, and every little bit helps, even if it is a bit cloudy and still some days, and the turbine might by a bit noisy, time for you to get in the modern world kerr.

‘A bit cloudy’ and ‘a bit noisy’. I see that you are squeezing your eyes tightly shut, whilst sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘la la la’ rather than facing up to the issues here.

You say the technology is there for us all to have batteries in our house, whereas I say it doesn’t… It seems to me that chasing around in circles on the issue is a bit pointless, so, for the sake of argument, let’s accept that you are right. That surely immediately raises three questions, doesn’t it?

1. If the technology for home battery storage exists, why isn’t it being installed across the country as we speak?

2. Guessing for a moment that you will have some corporate conspiracy theory to explain question 1 away, why have neither the Green Party nor the Labour Party in its recent environmental pronouncement proposed your battery in the home solution?

3. Assuming that you answer to question 3 is that the politicians lack your insight into the issue, why have you not set up a business - you could call it the Millmoor Magic Battery Company (that works on more than one level) to carry out installation of the technology you say exists? You could be first into the market and make your millions (but don’t take your company public and allow it to employ more than 249 people or you would risk a future Labour government seizing 10% of it).

Nobody is proposing a future use for coal for electricity generation. It’s dirty and clunky. But even the Green Party - who are rather more committed to renewables than any other party - accept that they would have to retain the capacity to use gas for electricity generation on days when renewables don’t cut it, which takes us back to the OP.

[KerrAvon]

Yes I know all about winter fog as I used to live there But not still for several weeks I can assure you that - several days perhaps. The unresolved issue with fracking is twofold - firstly it is not guaranteed to be safe enough either during or once the operation has left site - still too many unanswered questions and problems - and secondly all fossil feels are finite - what are we going to do with our current supplies when they suddenly run out? we need to diversify now - including ways of reducing as far as we can our energy consumption. There is a much wider debate and issue which the OP did not mention - hmmm....��

If you have lived in the Vale of York and are aware of how foggy it gets, why were you making enquiries of your step son?

Fracking has been heavily used in the USA - possibly the most litigious country in the world. I've not heard of any class actions arising out it being unsafe.

Yes, we do need to address climate change and the fact that fossil fuels are finite. My point is that simply building wind turbines and covering rooves and fields with solar panels isn’t an answer.

[BramleyMiller58]

I was "conned" into Solar Panels (too many cowboys)
Currently with the Ombudsman

They're not as good as advertised
Only have a 25 year (decreasing from day 1) life

Understand they're not very environmentally friendly to manufacture

Fracking ?
TBH wouldn't want it in my back yard (hypocrite ?)

However we're surrounded by sea which creates tides and offshore winds that would turn turbines

Still think that, in years to come, the coal reserves will be used (where they are) to produce the steam to turn the turbines