O/T Brexit

[jackal2]

We all know what it said. It's been stated a thousand times that it wasn't a promise, but it was clearly intended to mislead voters.

Do you seriously think this Tory government will deliver the utopian NHS in the leave campaign video that driller linked in post #143?

I hope to God they don't waste £350 million on the NHS because it would be a criminal waste of money. I can see why certain Leave campaigners might have exploited public naivety and mythology around the NHS as a simple campaigning tool, but I would hope the people with their hands on the purse strings realise that the NHS is an unsustainable money burning monster which is ultimately doomed to fail no matter how much cash you chuck at it.

[Elite_Pie]

I hope to God they don't waste £350 million on the NHS because it would be a criminal waste of money. I can see why certain Leave campaigners might have exploited public naivety and mythology around the NHS as a simple campaigning tool, but I would hope the people with their hands on the purse strings realise that the NHS is an unsustainable money burning monster which is ultimately doomed to fail no matter how much cash you chuck at it.

So what do you propose as an alternative? Private health care where the rich get a quality service and the poor are left to die?

[BigFatPie]

I hope to God they don't waste £350 million on the NHS because it would be a criminal waste of money. I can see why certain Leave campaigners might have exploited public naivety and mythology around the NHS as a simple campaigning tool, but I would hope the people with their hands on the purse strings realise that the NHS is an unsustainable money burning monster which is ultimately doomed to fail no matter how much cash you chuck at it.

What do you base those assertions on?

[jackal2]

What do you base those assertions on?

Painful personal experience of seeing the (ahem) "service" provided to three family members in their later years. During those experiences I also saw the total neglect of other poor folk, especially in the hospital, which I did try to highlight and prevent, and I've also received numerous anecdotal examples from other people who had a similar stories which show that my own experiences were not isolated examples. And before you say it, in my examples at least, these were not "resources issues" but laziness, lack of professionalism and attention to detail, not to mention the lack of even the most basic human instinct to care about someone suffering right in front of your eyes.

I don't actually object to health care being publicly funded, provided the money is being well spent, that outcomes are properly monitored and the people being paid to do the job are held accountable if they let their standards slip, but within such a huge bureaucratic structure this quality control has become impossible to maintain.

Even when the NHS is proven to have failed (and only a tiny percentage of people have the energy to pursue their case that far), there's no true accountability. The public are supposed to be placated with the news that the relevant trust has been issued with a heavy fine, apparently oblivious to the fact that they are actually fining themselves. The lazy or incompetent individuals responsible for the failure invariably walk away virtually scot-free or with a slap on the wrist, either continuing in the same role or moving elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, there are many people within the NHS who do care and do an excellent job, but that's because of the personal standards they set themselves. There's no pressure from the organisation to be conscientious. In fact, the way it operates makes it very attractive to those who patently do not care and fancy an easy ride.

[BigFatPie]

Painful personal experience of seeing the (ahem) "service" provided to three family members in their later years. During those experiences I also saw the total neglect of other poor folk, especially in the hospital, which I did try to highlight and prevent, and I've also received numerous anecdotal examples from other people who had a similar stories which show that my own experiences were not isolated examples. And before you say it, in my examples at least, these were not "resources issues" but laziness, lack of professionalism and attention to detail, not to mention the lack of even the most basic human instinct to care about someone suffering right in front of your eyes.

I don't actually object to health care being publicly funded, provided the money is being well spent, that outcomes are properly monitored and the people being paid to do the job are held accountable if they let their standards slip, but within such a huge bureaucratic structure this quality control has become impossible to maintain.

Even when the NHS is proven to have failed (and only a tiny percentage of people have the energy to pursue their case that far), there's no true accountability. The public are supposed to be placated with the news that the relevant trust has been issued with a heavy fine, apparently oblivious to the fact that they are actually fining themselves. The lazy or incompetent individuals responsible for the failure invariably walk away virtually scot-free or with a slap on the wrist, either continuing in the same role or moving elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, there are many people within the NHS who do care and do an excellent job, but that's because of the personal standards they set themselves. There's no pressure from the organisation to be conscientious. In fact, the way it operates makes it very attractive to those who patently do not care and fancy an easy ride.

Ah right purely anecdotal evidence then. I’ve had a lot of up close and personal experience of the NHS in the last few months, and my anecdotal evidence is that by and large the staff do an excellent job, sometimes under great pressure. Like any large organisation, there are of course the bad apples.

The actual data suggests that the NHS model is a very efficient way of delivering health care, but the UK chooses to spend less per head than other developed countries, with direct consequences for health outcomes. The US spends the most per capita on healthcare, but many studies say their healthcare is amongst the worst in the developed world.

Anyway, back to Brexit.

[crazyfists]

I am currently in a claim against the NHS due to a mistake with my chemotherapy treatment rendering me infertile, it's ****ed mine and my partners life up quite frankly this last 6 months and I want someone to be held accountable, we're furious. Having said all that I still think the NHS 99% of the time do an excellent job in very difficult circumstances. You can't view it as black and white, good or bad, it's like any organisation. I go regularly to the hospital for Kidney treatment and I think the staff are great, I also had a scad 2 months ago and was in for a week and again the care was excellent.

As Elite said, what's the alternative? I think we should be proud of it, I am and they've messed my life up ha ha. I still love the fact you can get treatment without having to have insurance or medical cover. The day we privatise the NHS to the extent we have to start having cover in place etc will be a very, very dark day but with the way the world is going regarding greed and peoples pursuit of money over all else, it won't be long.

[jackal2]

I am currently in a claim against the NHS due to a mistake with my chemotherapy treatment rendering me infertile, it's ****ed mine and my partners life up quite frankly this last 6 months and I want someone to be held accountable, we're furious.

That's the problem though. If you succeed in your claim, you'll perhaps get some (of your own) money back, but someone probably won't be held accountable, and the sloppy mistakes will keep happening. BigFatPie is right that you will get bad apples in any large organisation, but the way the NHS is set up, and the lack of true accountability within it, does nothing to tackle the problem.

[crazyfists]

That's the problem though. If you succeed in your claim, you'll perhaps get some (of your own) money back, but someone probably won't be held accountable, and the sloppy mistakes will keep happening. BigFatPie is right that you will get bad apples in any large organisation, but the way the NHS is set up, and the lack of true accountability within it, does nothing to tackle the problem.

Well in regards to the money side of it I'm not too bothered for the amount, it's more the fact I want someone to recognise their failings. It won't change anything for me but might stop someone else going through it due to new procedures and checks being put in place. I have been actually very conflicted about the whole claim issue as I am a big fan of the NHS but couldn't see any other way of holding them accountable. I agree that it's not set up or run to nowhere near its true potential. maybe a private organisation would be better in this respect but the fact that in 99% of treatments things go well and the service is good is something I think we should, as a country, be proud of. I loathe hearing about the American system where people couldn't get the treatment they need cause they couldn't afford it, this for me is really disgusting in a country with such wealth.

[i961pie]

Speak to the people who work in the NHS, not the administrators or managers but the hands on people, I know quite a few and they all sing from the same hymn sheet. Far to many chiefs and not enough Indians, paying way over the odds for supplies and drugs.
The NHS is brilliant but just throwing money at it is a waste of time unless it goes in the right place.

[navypie]

My wife's a nurse , works on a kids ward. Pisses me off when she comes home so knackered she can't even be bothered to make my dinner. She just doesn't appreciate how tiring walking the dog and watching Bargain Hunt is.