O/T Brexit

[i961pie]

I know, it drives me mad when I hear Leave voters retreating back to 'it might be difficult for a while, but in 10 or 20 years we'll start to see the difference.' Half the people saying this kind of thing won't even be alive in those time frames. It's just an inability to concede that they've made a mistake.

Nobody votes for something to get worse in the short term but better in the long term. People simply aren't selfless enough for that kind of thinking.

I can only speak for myself and I honestly believed and still do that it wouldn't be Utopia straight away and everything will take time.
It will be a massive upheaval but imo it will be famine before the feast.
Anyway I have other things to do so cheers for now it was good to have a discussion without either of us reverting to personal abuse.

[drillerpie]

On this topic I defer to Aaron Banks, main funder of the Leave.EU campaign and man who forgets about being offered Russian goldmines in meetings with the Russian ambassador he also forgot about.

Not to mention the man behind a campaign which broke electoral rules, and true British patriot who outsources his business's call centre to South Africa because it makes him more money.

On the topic of the two differing campaign strategies he said: "Facts don’t work. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”

So you got emotion. You got sunlit uplands, you got independence day, you stopped the 80 million Turks who were never coming anyway, but please let's not pretend it was a fair and honest campaign.

[drillerpie]

If you speak to many business owners, like myself it isn't the vote to leave that has caused them most concern but the ineptitude of those charged with seeing it through.

My own business has suffered terribly since the referendum but only because my clients and prospects are waiting for it to be resolved one way or another before they feel comfortable parting with large sums of money for new machinery etc.

One way or another I personally want to see a resolution asap. At this stage whether it is a watered down deal or no deal actually has no real bearing on matters as it will give businesses a baseline to start making positive decisions about investing in areas of their businesses they have up until now been avoiding.

I buy and sell equipment and services to and from all four corners of the world. The free trade agreement we have enjoyed in the EU is great but only really in the fact that I have less paperwork to do. My dealings with companies in Australasia and the Americas is much more lucrative and to be honest worth the extra admin.

I voted leave thinking it would force the UK to forge aggressive trade deals with other countries outside the EU. Unfortunately those charged with fulfilling this objective on behalf of UK trade and commerce have failed miserably and done nothing but waste time trying to appease a few suits in Brussels.

Ncfcog I remember you were very bullish after the vote because the falling pound made your exports cheaper. I'm sorry to hear your business is suffering because you're one of the more measured posters on here.

Maybe with your business acumen you can answer a question about trade deals I've asked a few times on here and never really had a reply.

If the EU negotiators have the bargaining power of access to 28 EU markets when discussing trade deals, how can we get a better deal with, for example, countries in the Americas and Australasia when we can only grant access to one market in return?

If I rang your company and ordered a machine but said I wanted a better price than you gave the guy who just ordered 28 machines, wouldn't you think I was stupid?

To put it another way, if a US state declared independence from the USA what bargaining power would it realistically have to get a better trade deal than the whole USA which can grant access to a much bigger market?

And the follow up question is: are our negotiators incompetent or have they just been given a near impossible job?

[ncfcog]

Ncfcog I remember you were very bullish after the vote because the falling pound made your exports cheaper. I'm sorry to hear your business is suffering because you're one of the more measured posters on here.

Maybe with your business acumen you can answer a question about trade deals I've asked a few times on here and never really had a reply.

If the EU negotiators have the bargaining power of access to 28 EU markets when discussing trade deals, how can we get a better deal with, for example, countries in the Americas and Australasia when we can only grant access to one market in return?

If I rang your company and ordered a machine but said I wanted a better price than you gave the guy who just ordered 28 machines, wouldn't you think I was stupid?

To put it another way, if a US state declared independence from the USA what bargaining power would it realistically have to get a better trade deal than the whole USA which can grant access to a much bigger market?

And the follow up question is: are our negotiators incompetent or have they just been given a near impossible job?

Driller, yes you are correct, I was and if it wasn't for my export business there is every chance we would not be trading today.

Regarding your analogy of the 28 states it all depends I suppose on the value the single state trying to negotiate the deals has in comparison to the others. I think it's fair to say that just about every economy in the world would and does covet the opportunity to sell goods into the UK, probably more so than say , Cyprus, Greece, Austria, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Slovenia etc etc. who are all, with the greatest respect, small fry in comparison.We should never underestimate the economic strength within the UK or indeed undersell what we have to offer the rest of the world.

As an example, in an attempt to try and turn around our fortunes we have designed a new product which is quite unique in our field. We have already received advanced orders within the UK and one of the largest manufacturing companies in our industry, based in Scandinavia is wanted to discuss being able to manufacture this product for us and look to sell on a global platform.

Now I'm not saying for one minute that this will be a resounding success and I have just found a winning Lotto ticket, we have a long way to go yet and there will be many bumps in the road, however it is just an indication of what businesses and of course the people in this country can offer industry the world over. I'm not sure you could necessarily get that from some of the other member states listed above?

[i961pie]

I can only speak for myself and I honestly believed and still do that it wouldn't be Utopia straight away and everything will take time.
It will be a massive upheaval but imo it will be famine before the feast.

Anyway I have other things to do so cheers for now it was good to have a discussion without either of us reverting to personal abuse.

Apologies Slackpie the last 2 lines of this post were aimed at MM

[drillerpie]

Driller, yes you are correct, I was and if it wasn't for my export business there is every chance we would not be trading today.

Regarding your analogy of the 28 states it all depends I suppose on the value the single state trying to negotiate the deals has in comparison to the others. I think it's fair to say that just about every economy in the world would and does covet the opportunity to sell goods into the UK, probably more so than say , Cyprus, Greece, Austria, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Slovenia etc etc. who are all, with the greatest respect, small fry in comparison.We should never underestimate the economic strength within the UK or indeed undersell what we have to offer the rest of the world.

As an example, in an attempt to try and turn around our fortunes we have designed a new product which is quite unique in our field. We have already received advanced orders within the UK and one of the largest manufacturing companies in our industry, based in Scandinavia is wanted to discuss being able to manufacture this product for us and look to sell on a global platform.

Now I'm not saying for one minute that this will be a resounding success and I have just found a winning Lotto ticket, we have a long way to go yet and there will be many bumps in the road, however it is just an indication of what businesses and of course the people in this country can offer industry the world over. I'm not sure you could necessarily get that from some of the other member states listed above?

Ok well I applaud your new innovation and I wish you the best of luck with it.

As I'm sure you're aware, the EU is made up of more than the economically insignificant countries you have just cited, so if we simplify the argument and say that instead of 28 the EU negotiators can use access to 4 lucrative, developed markets (UK, GER, FRA, ITA) with a combined population of over 200 million people in which to sell their products, and from which to import innovative hi tech products, as a bargaining chip to extract concessions from third countries.

The question is the same, how are our negotiators going to get better trade deals (or even the same deal, but let's say better because otherwise what's the point of doing it?) from a third country, when in return they can only offer access to fewer consumers in fewer markets?

[ncfcog]

Ok well I applaud your new innovation and I wish you the best of luck with it.

As I'm sure you're aware, the EU is made up of more than the economically insignificant countries you have just cited, so if we simplify the argument and say that instead of 28 the EU negotiators can use access to 4 lucrative, developed markets (UK, GER, FRA, ITA) with a combined population of over 200 million people in which to sell their products, and from which to import innovative hi tech products, as a bargaining chip to extract concessions from third countries.

The question is the same, how are our negotiators going to get better trade deals (or even the same deal, but let's say better because otherwise what's the point of doing it?) from a third country, when in return they can only offer access to fewer consumers in fewer markets?

Thanks Driller.

I suppose it's more a question of consolidation, less dilution?

[drillerpie]

Thanks Driller.

I suppose it's more a question of consolidation, less dilution?

In what way?

[forwardmagpie]

Not always, but if you offer an opinion that the NHS could get an extra £350 million per week when you know for a absolute fact there isn't a cat in hell's chance of it ever happening, how is that not lying?

You are slow of thinking Elite - you know the bus didn't say would, you know the bus didn't say could.

If you think it hinted that all the money would go to the NHS more fool you.

[Elite_Pie]

You are slow of thinking Elite - you know the bus didn't say would, you know the bus didn't say could.

If you think it hinted that all the money would go to the NHS more fool you.

I knew the second I saw it that there was absolutely no chance of it happening and posted as much at the time. It seems Farage also instantly knew it would never happen, so I wonder why he waited until the day after the vote to tell everyone?