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Thread: OT- The US midterms

  1. #41
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Firstly, Islamophobia is defined as a fear and hatred of or prejudice towards the Islamic religion and Muslims.

    As regards the irrational aspect. Like most phobias i.e. those relating to such things as heights, spiders, water, dogs, germs etc, the level of rationality or otherwise attached to them is contextual, i.e. there are times when fear of such things is entirely rational and others when it appears plain daft. I suppose that is the difference between fear and phobia.

    To extend this to Islamophobia...contrary to your assertion, it does exist, otherwise it would and could not have been defined.
    Perhaps however only those who ‘suffer’ from it are likely to believe Islam to be a ‘violent, supremacist ideology whose holy book demands I should join them or have my head cut off.’
    The vast majority of Muslims do not support terrorism or subscribe to the views you describe, which further suggests that indeed Islamophobia does exist, is largely irrational and may well be something you have first hand experience of.


    It seems when you use a word, it means just what you choose it to mean — neither more nor less. Actually, I think Humpty Dumpty himself would have stopped short of claiming, as you appear to do, that if a word exists then its referent too must exist. That sounds a bit like the ontological argument for the existence of god. Sadly, I know for sure god doesn't exist otherwise Ronaldo would be playing for Barnsley. Sadly, it's more likely Humpty Dumpty will get a game for us.

    I'm not up on all that Freudian stuff but I'm sure a word can be contextualised when it suits.

    The rest of your diatribe rests upon the widely held misconception that there are lots of good, moderate muslims and evil terrorists who justify their barbaric behaviour on a twisted, perverted, interpretation of the Quran. I've heard it all before. The Quran contains the word of Allah verbatim, word for word, it's there to read in all its gory detail. There's nothing to twist or misinterpret. God will not allow (moderate) muslims to choose what they want it to mean.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    Romanis said: "Florida has just passed a bill allowing people with records to be allowed to vote again, an influx of 1.5m new votes, most of them being Blacks and Latinos."

    This is a staggering statistic, so there are 1.5 million people in Florida with criminal records? This is not just a speeding fine or ASBOs, this is a felony where they have been convicted and sentenced to jail. There are 7 primary felonies in the US system: murder, non negligent manslaughter, rape, robbery, felony assault, burglary and grand larceny (including that of a vehicle).

    Lets just think about that for a moment - Florida has 21 million residents, lets say 15% are under 18 years of age and so cannot vote anyway, and we all know Florida is the capital of the snowbird - overage predominantly white citizens who go south for the sun in retirement, and are not what you might typically think of as murderers, rapists etc. So there might be a voting population of 15 million, many of whom are elderly.

    The inference is that maybe 10% of the community aged over 18 have committed one of these jail-able felonies. That seems extraordinary to me.

    Then you suggest that most of these are "blacks or latinos" (setting aside the racist presumptions underlying your assertion). 42% of Florida's population is black or hispanic. Thus the statistics as portrayed by you would imply that maybe 1 in 4 black or hispanic floridians over 18 have spent time in jail.

    I am not questioning your statistics here, but just shocked at the result
    You're quite right there. Florida is indeed a retirement state that's why Republicans have done reasonably well. It has a large Hispanic bloc and of course a resident Black population. The Hispanics were not all Dems as some would suggest, but from recent trends the establishment to cast them as outsiders, have turned many away. Hispanics in Florida unlike California or Arizona would not necessarily be from Mexico, rather other Central American states including Cuba. I think Reagan, and the 2 Bushes did have some policies that encouraged them and gave them breaks, many then being single mothers who worked hard to ensure their kids got a good education - eg Senator Marco Rubio. GOP policies supported people like these and the Ilian Gonzalez incident under the Clinton Administration turned them away from Democrats.

    But the swing to the Democrats is well and truly on. Of course there is no presumption on my part about the majority of these felons being either Black or Hispanic, but if I'm not wrong (and to be very wrong which unlikely) almost all reports not just in Florida but nationwide show a greater disparity in prisoners and felons between their racial percentages. You forgot 1 serious felony in your list which accounts for the majority with records - drug related offences. Most Whites tend to escape as they have monies and can afford lawyers, whereas the lower end Black and Hispanics cannot. This has led to record numbers in jail.

    So for this 1.5m, I think maybe non-Whites might account up to 75%, maybe even more. Of course, most might not vote, in the US, the GOP controlled states realised that the key to winning is not how many people support your party, rather how many you can muster to register to vote and then ensure they vote. Registration to put it mildly is sometimes a bitch, and most of the poorer folk either don't know, don't have enough proper documents, don't have time or the money to go to the polling station. The Republicans are extremely good in this. If 750,000 of these people can turn up in 2020 and the Dems register them properly, they stand a good chance.

    I might be mistaken, but if I'm not wrong, I read somewhere that only around 15 states allow felons to vote. In many of the rest, they can vote only after 2 years, but must re-register or be granted permission. In some states, even if you convicted as a minor, you still lose your right. And most do not allow those on probation to vote. So you have like 2 years after release on probation, then a further 2 years before you become eligible. So maybe these 1.5m might not be ready to vote in 2020, but say 2022 or 2024, and they might have to register, depending on exactly what legislation Florida passed.

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=GUNTERYY36;39059236]It seems when you use a word, it means just what you choose it to mean — neither more nor less. Actually, I think Humpty Dumpty himself would have stopped short of claiming, as you appear to do, that if a word exists then its referent too must exist. That sounds a bit like the ontological argument for the existence of god. Sadly, I know for sure god doesn't exist otherwise Ronaldo would be playing for Barnsley. Sadly, it's more likely Humpty Dumpty will get a game for us.
    /QUOTE]

    To be fair, I would think that Humpty Dumpty had more ambition than to play for Barnsley

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GUNTERYY36 View Post
    It seems when you use a word, it means just what you choose it to mean — neither more nor less. Actually, I think Humpty Dumpty himself would have stopped short of claiming, as you appear to do, that if a word exists then its referent too must exist. That sounds a bit like the ontological argument for the existence of god. Sadly, I know for sure god doesn't exist otherwise Ronaldo would be playing for Barnsley. Sadly, it's more likely Humpty Dumpty will get a game for us.

    I'm not up on all that Freudian stuff but I'm sure a word can be contextualised when it suits.

    The rest of your diatribe rests upon the widely held misconception that there are lots of good, moderate muslims and evil terrorists who justify their barbaric behaviour on a twisted, perverted, interpretation of the Quran. I've heard it all before. The Quran contains the word of Allah verbatim, word for word, it's there to read in all its gory detail. There's nothing to twist or misinterpret. God will not allow (moderate) muslims to choose what they want it to mean.
    Okay Gunteryy, I thought I’d been really clear but apparently not, so I’ll try once more.
    At 3.32 on 7/11/18 as part of your attempted defence of Trump you stated, ‘ there’s no such thing as Islamophobia’ and therefore ‘no defence can be offered’.
    No one other than you had actually mentioned the term before but we’ll let that pass.

    When I challenged your dismissal of the term you asked for a definition.
    I provided one which you appear not to have agreed with at which point you started banging on about Humpty Dumpty and Ronaldo...I’m not entirely sure why.
    My point, very simply is...if you can look up a word/term...using Google or the Oxford English Dictionary to name but two reliable sources, and find a clear definition...then the odds are that it exists.

    As regards your second statement suggesting that the ‘gory details’ of the Quran will not allow for ‘moderate Muslims’. I should make clear that personally I have little time for any organised religion and think the World would probably be better off without any of them.
    I do however find it curious that you should identify the Quran alone when it is equally easy to find passages in the Bible that can easily be interpreted as advocating everything from genocide to slavery and overt ***ism to filicide.
    Only the extremists amongst all sides take these texts literally any more and it is they we should all be concentrating our efforts on rather than adopting the policy of divisiveness you appear to support.

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=Geoff Parkstone;39059338]
    Quote Originally Posted by GUNTERYY36 View Post
    It seems when you use a word, it means just what you choose it to mean — neither more nor less. Actually, I think Humpty Dumpty himself would have stopped short of claiming, as you appear to do, that if a word exists then its referent too must exist. That sounds a bit like the ontological argument for the existence of god. Sadly, I know for sure god doesn't exist otherwise Ronaldo would be playing for Barnsley. Sadly, it's more likely Humpty Dumpty will get a game for us.
    /QUOTE]

    To be fair, I would think that Humpty Dumpty had more ambition than to play for Barnsley

    Ouch, Geoff Parkstone, that was a bit below the belt

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Okay Gunteryy, I thought I’d been really clear but apparently not, so I’ll try once more.
    At 3.32 on 7/11/18 as part of your attempted defence of Trump you stated, ‘ there’s no such thing as Islamophobia’ and therefore ‘no defence can be offered’.
    No one other than you had actually mentioned the term before but we’ll let that pass.

    When I challenged your dismissal of the term you asked for a definition.
    I provided one which you appear not to have agreed with at which point you started banging on about Humpty Dumpty and Ronaldo...I’m not entirely sure why.
    My point, very simply is...if you can look up a word/term...using Google or the Oxford English Dictionary to name but two reliable sources, and find a clear definition...then the odds are that it exists.

    As regards your second statement suggesting that the ‘gory details’ of the Quran will not allow for ‘moderate Muslims’. I should make clear that personally I have little time for any organised religion and think the World would probably be better off without any of them.
    I do however find it curious that you should identify the Quran alone when it is equally easy to find passages in the Bible that can easily be interpreted as advocating everything from genocide to slavery and overt ***ism to filicide.
    Only the extremists amongst all sides take these texts literally any more and it is they we should all be concentrating our efforts on rather than adopting the policy of divisiveness you appear to support.
    Okay, RamAnag, I'll keep it simple too. Whatever definitions the OED offers, the meaning of a word resides in the context in which it appears. There is no meaning per se. And words like 'Islamophobia', 'hate speech', 'hate crime' are much too vague to have a definition other than to stifle criticism of Islam. You mind your ps and qs when talking of Islam otherwise you'll be in hot water. Blasphemy law is just around the corner.

    I focus on Islam for the simple reason that as I understand it, the NT advocates something resembling peace and love and all that stuff whereas the Quran unambiguously mandates the genocide of non-believers.

    I agree the world would be better off without organised religion. Sadly, it's not going to happen.
    Last edited by GUNTERYY36; 10-11-2018 at 11:45 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by GUNTERYY36 View Post
    Okay, RamAnag, I'll keep it simple too. Whatever definitions the OED offers, the meaning of a word resides in the context in which it appears. There is no meaning per se. And words like 'Islamophobia', 'hate speech', 'hate crime' are much too vague to have a definition other than to stifle criticism of Islam. You mind your ps and qs when talking of Islam otherwise you'll be in hot water. Blasphemy law is just around the corner.

    I focus on Islam for the simple reason that as I understand it, the NT advocates something resembling peace and love and all that stuff whereas the Quran unambiguously mandates the genocide of non-believers.

    I agree the world would be better off without organised religion. Sadly, it's not going to happen.
    You seem to have dragged us way off topic Gunteryy.
    Suffice it to say I’ll take the OED definitions over your agenda driven ones every time. If a word or term is referenced there then that’s good enough for me and as it happens, all three of the ones you dispute are to be found there.

    I’ve actually never felt unable to offer criticism of any religion. I guess it would be unwise to challenge Islam at a Jihadist convention but then I’d be equally loath to question the Pope’s wisdom in a pub on the Falls Road or walk down the Shankhill wearing a Celtic shirt.

    I doubt the blasphemy laws will be reintroduced, although it seems worth pointing out that they did come close recently...in that hot bed of Islam - the Irish Republic - when Stephen Fry had the audacity to refer to a ‘mean spirited and stupid god’ a year or so ago.

    God save us all from extremists of all persuasions.

  8. #48
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    Islamophobia does exist with very good reason.
    Ignore the tipping point at your peril. This is why plots in the German army are being un covered, due to Merkels madness.
    Luckily, a Major confessed.

    Beware and ignore it if you want. The moment Islam has enough followers it stops being submissive. Fact.

    https://www.humanistperspectives.org...83/murray.html

  9. #49
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    ‘The moment Islam has enough followers it stops being submissive. Fact.’

    Lol! It’s already got an estimated 1.8 billion followers (about 24% of the World’s population)...how many do you think it needs exactly?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    ‘The moment Islam has enough followers it stops being submissive. Fact.’

    Lol! It’s already got an estimated 1.8 billion followers (about 24% of the World’s population)...how many do you think it needs exactly?
    37% seems to be the going rate

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