How to deal with awkward journalists

[1959_60]

The Common Travel Area is currently in operation Sinkov. In effect, it is an open border.

Surely you are not suggesting a no deal Brexit without border checks in Ireland?

A big part of the Brexit argument was to control our borders.

[sinkov]

The Common Travel Area is currently in operation Sinkov. In effect, it is an open border.

Surely you are not suggesting a no deal Brexit without border checks in Ireland?

A big part of the Brexit argument was to control our borders.

Yes I know it's in operation 59/60, that's why I was pointing it out to footy. As far as I understand it the CTA was brought in long before the EU was even dreamed of and will continue after Brexit. Do you Remoaners have a problem with it ?

[1959_60]

No Sinkov it works fine at the moment with free movement, although I admit that I don't know exactly how it works. At the moment there are no border checks but during the troubles they caused loads of bother.

But if we wish to "take back control of our borders" then how do we make sure that those pesky foreigners don't simply enter the UK via the Irish border? More knowledgeable people than us have tried to sort this out but there hasn't been a viable solution yet.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Surrendering Northern Ireland to the EU is never, ever going to happen. Sheer demographics and population shifts will resolve the problem eventually.

Myself and millions of others believe we should take back control of our sovereign nation, but because we have to live and exist in the real world we must insert a caveat or two:

1). Remain a member of the Customs Union.

2). Retain access to the Single Market.

3). Maintain the rights and privileges bestowed on all of the EU citizens who crossed borders and settled in EU states pre-Brexit.

Sling a sum of money to close our EU account and crack on. Stipulate that EU states cannot fish in our waters, we ain't taking no ECJ directives and from April 1st (as good a day as any!) unless we have a concrete reciprocal agreement, no free access to our NHS to EU citizens. 43 years of EU nonsenses will take a bit of time to untangle, but we can do that as we move merrily along.

Incidentally, Germany sells more to the Commonwealth countries than we do. Time we got on Norman's bike and got cracking methinks!

[1959_60]

Remaining in the Customs Union and Single Market will not suit many Brexiteers BT. We would be unable to strike external deals, have to obey EU laws whilst not having any say in them, continue to be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and continue to pay the EU subsidies.
We would have to accept freedom of movement, which most Brexiteers don't want.

How would this be better than what we have now?

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Cake and eat it 1959-60!

The Customs Union we need allows free movement of goods and EU citizens and vica versa but no right of abode. That's not to say a couple of French Rocket Scientists or a couple of Latvian, female blonde models can't stay.

We just need to be more creative and assertive. Me, you and sinkov could have this mess sorted by next Wednesday.

[sinkov]

Remaining in the Customs Union and Single Market will not suit many Brexiteers BT. We would be unable to strike external deals, have to obey EU laws whilst not having any say in them, continue to be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and continue to pay the EU subsidies.
We would have to accept freedom of movement, which most Brexiteers don't want.

How would this be better than what we have now?

We never seem to move on from this, once we leave the EU we CANNOT be members of the Customs Union or Single market, or conversely, if we are, then we haven't left the EU. What we seek is 'a' Customs Union, not the EU Customs Union, and not membership of the Single market, but access to it. The problem seems to be that's what's on offer is a dog's breakfast of so called temporary membership of the Customs Union and Single Market, some of which applies to NI but not us, or vice versa, I've honestly lost track of the details by now. And there is no way we can unilaterally extricate ourselves from this 'temporary' arrangement, for which there is no time limit. No sensible PM could agree to it, nor will our parliament.

What is especially worrying about this 'temporary' arrangement, shackling us to the EU, paying into the EU, and with no means of ending the arrangement, is one of the most well known of EU mantras. Ask any political journo and they will tell you what it is, 'In the EU, the temporary becomes the permanent'. We agree to this arrangement at our peril, it's what was referred to some time ago as the Hotel California Brexit, you can check out, but you can never leave.

Just on this manufactured hard border problem in Ireland. I can't find any reference to a hard border in the Belfast Agreement, I must have missed it, could someone point me in the right direction ? What I did find though was this,

"the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland’s status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people;"

This is very odd, May's Chequers proposal clearly alters the status of NI and the EU have agreed to it, and so it violates the Belfast Agreement. How is this acceptable, but we need a backstop for the border ? Ever get the feeling you're being gaslighted ?

[The Bedlington Terrier]

"Ever get the feeling you're being gaslighted ?"

All of the time sinkov, all of the time.

[1959_60]

I just don't see how the Irish border problem can be solved - without Northern Ireland being treated as essentially still being in the EU.

Brexiteers are very clear that we have to "take back control of our borders". How can this work if there is no hard border?

The withdrawal agreement simply kicked the issue into the long grass.
The EU wanted Northern Ireland to be treated like Eire, to avoid a hard border. This was not acceptable to the DUP. So we have agreed that ALL the UK will remain in the customs union and single market during the implementation period, when, as if by magic, someone will solve this unsolvable problem.
And if we don't solve it (which we won't) then the UK will remain in the single market/customs union until we do. Hence the Hotel California reference.

If we "crash out" without a deal, then the Irish border issue becomes immediate and very real. If there is a soft border then forget about "taking back control of our borders".
If there is a hard border then politics has failed, possibly with dire consequences.

[Supersub6]

".......If there is a hard border then politics has failed, possibly with dire consequences."

This really is a worry in all of the negotiations. Many think that the Goood Friday Agreement solved everything in Ireland, however, that was and is not the case. It is not anywhere near as bad as it used to be, however, there is still a lot going on but it does not get the media coverage that it used to do. I have lots of friends who live in Northern Ireland and it is a concern to them as to just where we are going with all of this. Only time will tell what transpired, suffice to say that it is a real mess!