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Thread: Atheism

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacman1903 View Post
    As in we are all like Rimmer
    "Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast."

  2. #22
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    I find atheism and humanism to be pretty dull to be honest. Clearly atheism doesn't necessitate any particular moral system or belief but there is a certain "type" of atheist (i.e. quotes Richard Dawkins religiously). Dawkins should stick to Darwinian evolution - he comes across as sophomoric when he tries to branch out.

    Philosophically, humanist ethics always seem to be pretty circular. It's good to be kind to people because being kind to people is good. (Yeah I know there's more to it than that).

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacman1903 View Post
    The christian dude at my work lost his wife at 27. He told me it was parts of gods plan

    That just reeks of bonkers to me.

    If thats what he believes then fair enough but thats a strong belief if he thinks thats the case
    It is utterly bonkers. I guess he finds comfort in believing that, but if for instance i was truly to believe such a thing, i would be seriously pissed off with my 'god'. I dont understand faith in that way though, so i guess i dotn understand it.

    Religion to me is an ancient control system, preaching high morals while also contradicting them and punishing those who think differently. Being good or evil is subjective anyway and what is classed as evil by one group is equally said to be okay by another. This is why religion fails IMO.

    Lets also not forget that Galileo was put under house arrest by the Catholic Church for promoting Heliocentrism, which has been proven to be the model of the solar system. Why? because he didbnt agree with their view of Geocentrism. This was perhaps almost 400 years ago, but religion is still trying to control society and it astounds me that so many people still by into it.

    My question to any religious person who has the audacity to question my atheism, is why is that your god is the true god? if you were born in Iraq for instance, it would be a different god. If you were born in Norway 1300 years ago you would be believing in Norse gods like Odin and Thor. They cant all be the one true god.

    I like to take the stance of Stephen Fry during his infamous interview with Gay Byrne:


    Gabriel Mary “Gay” Byrne :
    Suppose it’s all true, and you walk up to the pearly gates, and are confronted by God. What will Stephen Fry say to him, her, or it?

    Stephen John Fry :

    I will basically…that is the odyssey…I think I’d say, ‘bone cancer in children? What’s that about? How dare you? How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It’s not right. Its utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain?’ That’s what I’d say.”

    Guy Byrne:
    And you think you’re going to get in?

    Stephen Fry:
    No! But I wouldn’t want to. I wouldn’t want to get in on his terms. They’re wrong. Now, If I died and it was – it was Pluto, Hades, and it was the twelve Greek gods, then I would have more truck with it, because the Greek’s were… they didn’t pretend not to be human in their appetites, and in their capriciousness and in unreasonableness. They didn’t present themselves as being all-seeing, all-wise, all-kind, all-beneficent. Because the god who created this universe, if indeed it was created by God, is quite clearly a maniac. Utter maniac. Totally selfish. Totally…. We have to spend our life on our knees, thanking him? What kind of god would do that? Yes, the world is splendid, but it also has in it insects, whose whole life cycle is to burrow into the eyes of children and make them blind. That eat outwards from the eyes. How — why? Why did you do that to us? You could easily have made a creation in which that didn’t exist. It is simply not acceptable.

    So, you know, atheism is not just about them not believing there is – not believing there is a god, but on the assumption that there is one, what kind of god is he? It’s perfectly apparent that he’s monstrous, utterly monstrous, and deserves no respect whatsoever. The moment you banish him, your life becomes simpler, purer, cleaner, and more worth living in my opinion.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stupie82 View Post
    Religion to me is an ancient control system, preaching high morals while also contradicting them and punishing those who think differently. Being good or evil is subjective anyway and what is classed as evil by one group is equally said to be okay by another. This is why religion fails IMO.
    This is a partial truth.

    That's not to say there aren't major problems that are inherent to religion. Clearly there are, some of which you have identified. Humans are inherently corrupt and fallen creatures and increasingly science is confirming this (GIRFUY Descartes) which is one of the key messages of Christianity. Modern religions are basically anthologies of ancient stories. Some of those stories are universal in their applicability. Some are probably not relevant if you aren't an inhabitant of a 1st century desert culture. Why did paganism cease to be relevant? Because as society became more technologically advanced and there was an increasing division of labour more people were living in cities and we became less dependent on annual crop cycles and the like. More advances societies require more advanced narratives to keep them functioning. So yes, religions were partially a necessary form of social control and are one of the things that bound societies together and kept them functioning. Their "truth" value can largely be derived based on their cultural success. Christianity is a very successful religion - whether you agree that it gave birth to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment or hindered it, it nonetheless created a society in which the conditions existed for their emergence.

    The human mind desires certainty which leads to the development of dogmas. Some dogmas are nestled in truth, others are 'superstitious' in that any link to reality has since been forgotten. I'm very pessimistic that dogmatism can be overcome with 'rationality and reason'. That's not to diminish the important of rationality and reason which has had a huge impact on humanity. It's more that those who espouse it greatly exaggerate its significance in human affairs. Rationality and reason are ultimately slaves to our more primitive urges. We don't rationally choose our moral or ethical values as free agents in a vacuum. We adopt values based on those of our society, community and finally that which reveals itself based on our own experiences of reality. Freud described this quite well with the Id-Ego-Super-ego. Religious traditions are part of what influences the super-ego. We can say that Christianity has outlived it's usefulness (or that God is Dead as Nietzsche put it) but we need to take the question of what comes after Christianity very seriously. We can already see how fractured our societies are becoming in the absence of a unifying narrative and belief system. In Communism and Fascism we have already seen the emergence of totalitarian ideologies as a taste of what might replace religious traditionalism.

    As for God, I think the best way to think of it is as a kind of allegorical metaphor for the ultimate nature of reality (which is basically how Spinoza saw it). No matter how smart, rational and powerful humans become we will always be constrained by our limited and finite state within the infinite. God represents the infinite. If God is portrayed as cruel and arbitrary the correct question is not "why would God create such a world as this", it's "why wouldn't a God who created such a world as this not be cruel and arbitrary?".
    Last edited by ragnarok; 16-11-2018 at 02:28 AM.

  5. #25
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    (sorry, getting my French philosophers mixed up - reference to Descartes should be Rousseau)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    (sorry, getting my French philosophers mixed up - reference to Descartes should be Rousseau)
    How dare you

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacman1903 View Post
    I have worked/visited a lot of very religious countries and my atheism is taken with complete disbelief. Nobody seems to get it and I don't see why. I accept their beliefs. Why not reciprocate. Some people have gone as as far to say my parents were bad people for raising me with no religion.

    Egypt was good for a laugh as one guy (Mussapha) tried to convert me and bought me over 20 books on Islam. He got his friend to take them to site when he started shift. He quizzed me every day to make sure I was reading them. Good old Wikipedia came in handy that trip

    My current job there is a guy who constantly pesters me to read the bible as I "need to let Jesus in to my life"

    The only religion I like is Bad Religion the band
    Have a read of Four**** Lessons in Yogi Philosophy & Oriental Occultism http://www.arfalpha.com/yogiphilosph...philosophy.pdf
    Then you'll be able to explain to your religious suitors what religion really is , along with other spiritual verities.

    PS. You'll get castigated from the Atheist community for implying you have a belief ( which you do have, off course)
    I am not Atheist btw
    Last edited by Jussi; 16-11-2018 at 09:22 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacman1903 View Post
    How dare you
    The standards on this board have fallen sharply. I yearn for the days when we could discuss French philosophers without such basic errors

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    This is a partial truth.

    That's not to say there aren't major problems that are inherent to religion. Clearly there are, some of which you have identified. Humans are inherently corrupt and fallen creatures and increasingly science is confirming this (GIRFUY Descartes) which is one of the key messages of Christianity. Modern religions are basically anthologies of ancient stories. Some of those stories are universal in their applicability. Some are probably not relevant if you aren't an inhabitant of a 1st century desert culture. Why did paganism cease to be relevant? Because as society became more technologically advanced and there was an increasing division of labour more people were living in cities and we became less dependent on annual crop cycles and the like. More advances societies require more advanced narratives to keep them functioning. So yes, religions were partially a necessary form of social control and are one of the things that bound societies together and kept them functioning. Their "truth" value can largely be derived based on their cultural success. Christianity is a very successful religion - whether you agree that it gave birth to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment or hindered it, it nonetheless created a society in which the conditions existed for their emergence.

    The human mind desires certainty which leads to the development of dogmas. Some dogmas are nestled in truth, others are 'superstitious' in that any link to reality has since been forgotten. I'm very pessimistic that dogmatism can be overcome with 'rationality and reason'. That's not to diminish the important of rationality and reason which has had a huge impact on humanity. It's more that those who espouse it greatly exaggerate its significance in human affairs. Rationality and reason are ultimately slaves to our more primitive urges. We don't rationally choose our moral or ethical values as free agents in a vacuum. We adopt values based on those of our society, community and finally that which reveals itself based on our own experiences of reality. Freud described this quite well with the Id-Ego-Super-ego. Religious traditions are part of what influences the super-ego. We can say that Christianity has outlived it's usefulness (or that God is Dead as Nietzsche put it) but we need to take the question of what comes after Christianity very seriously. We can already see how fractured our societies are becoming in the absence of a unifying narrative and belief system. In Communism and Fascism we have already seen the emergence of totalitarian ideologies as a taste of what might replace religious traditionalism.

    As for God, I think the best way to think of it is as a kind of allegorical metaphor for the ultimate nature of reality (which is basically how Spinoza saw it). No matter how smart, rational and powerful humans become we will always be constrained by our limited and finite state within the infinite. God represents the infinite. If God is portrayed as cruel and arbitrary the correct question is not "why would God create such a world as this", it's "why wouldn't a God who created such a world as this not be cruel and arbitrary?".
    Ha, I think you'll find that was Rousseau and nae Descartes

    edit: Apologies, I've just seen your other post...

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    (sorry, getting my French philosophers mixed up - reference to Descartes should be Rousseau)
    They were only born over 100 years apart... duh

    Just kidding - good post.

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