O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[rolymiller]

So after all the shennanigans in the commons today Theresa has permission now to go back to the EU and ask for the backstop to be removed. Erm havent we been here before? The EU will have the same 2 fingers for her...and have said as much.

[great_fire]

So after all the shennanigans in the commons today Theresa has permission now to go back to the EU and ask for the backstop to be removed. Erm havent we been here before? The EU will have the same 2 fingers for her...and have said as much.

Good.

A saving of £39 billion.

[KerrAvon]

So after all the shennanigans in the commons today Theresa has permission now to go back to the EU and ask for the backstop to be removed. Erm havent we been here before? The EU will have the same 2 fingers for her...and have said as much.

Yes, they have said as much.

Now look at the reality of the situation (as Parliament seems to have managed to do today).

The EU can no longer say that they don’t know what the UK wants. It is now absolutely clear that the obstacle to the May deal passing Parliament is the current backstop proposal, which is designed to prevent a hard border in Ireland.

It’s also clear that Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 and to set 29th March as Brexit Day. In other words, it should now be clear to the EU that if they don’t shift on the backstop, they seriously risk waking up on 30th March with a no deal Brexit and the very hard border that they say they want to avoid.

[rolymiller]

...and we are gonna wake up up shi t creek without a paddle...

The very hard border is gonna be a problem for us as well by the way.

[KerrAvon]

And your point is what? Let's look at this logically:

Parliament voted to give the UK a referendum on EU membership.

The UK electorate voted to leave the EU.

Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 and to have a meaningful vote upon the deal that the government came back with.

The Tories, Labour and DUP ran General Election campaigns in 2017 that contained promises to honour the referendum outcome and took around 80% of the votes between them

May negotiated a deal.

Parliament voted to reject the May deal, but has now indicated what deal it would accept.

The EU will either come up with a satisfactory compromise or they won’t. If they don’t, we all live with the consequences of the sequence of events described above, including the decision of the UK electorate to vote to leave and to support parties with leave positions in 2017. Sh it creek or not, it's democracy.

[rolymiller]

What are the consequences of us coming out of the EU? Does anyone really know? Are we prepared for it?Do we trust that the govt will have everything ."in hand" for such an eventuality? Or is it gonna be one botch up after another...Can't say I have heard WTO mentioned for a long time. Do we have any deals set up?

[ragingpup]

Yes, they have said as much.

Now look at the reality of the situation (as Parliament seems to have managed to do today).

The EU can no longer say that they don’t know what the UK wants. It is now absolutely clear that the obstacle to the May deal passing Parliament is the current backstop proposal, which is designed to prevent a hard border in Ireland.

It’s also clear that Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 and to set 29th March as Brexit Day. In other words, it should now be clear to the EU that if they don’t shift on the backstop, they seriously risk waking up on 30th March with a no deal Brexit and the very hard border that they say they want to avoid.

The EU don't want the hard border and have negotiated hard with whatever powers they have to keep the soft border whilst respecting the UK decision to leave.

If we can't agree a deal with them, and they have been clear for months that the wa isn't for further negotiation, then isn't it our choice to leave, not theirs, and any hard border is a consequence of our actions, not theirs? Why would they be worried about waking up on the 30th when they aren't the ones whose actions caused it? Isn't that the crucial difference between a border appearing in the event of a deal or no deal?

[KerrAvon]

The EU don't want the hard border and have negotiated hard with whatever powers they have to keep the soft border whilst respecting the UK decision to leave.

If we can't agree a deal with them, and they have been clear for months that the wa isn't for further negotiation, then isn't it our choice to leave, not theirs, and any hard border is a consequence of our actions, not theirs? Why would they be worried about waking up on the 30th when they aren't the ones whose actions caused it? Isn't that the crucial difference between a border appearing in the event of a deal or no deal?

So it comes down to who 'caused' the hard border? How exactly does that work or matter?

Of course it is our choice to leave. The UK electorate voted to do so and their position was put into effect by the UK Parliament.

Both the EU and UK claim to want to avoid a hard border. With Parliament making it very clear that the May deal will not pass with the current backstop arrangement in it there will either be a compromise or there won't be. The fact that failing to compromise leads immediately to the outcome that everyone says they don't want must surely act as an incentive to come to a mutually acceptable arrangement. If it doesn't then we are truly where Roly fears.

[ragingpup]

So it comes down to who 'caused' the hard border? How exactly does that work or matter?

Of course it is our choice to leave. The UK electorate voted to do so and their position was put into effect by the UK Parliament.

Both the EU and UK claim to want to avoid a hard border. With Parliament making it very clear that the May deal will not pass with the current backstop arrangement in it there will either be a compromise or there won't be. The fact that failing to compromise leads immediately to the outcome that everyone says they don't want must surely act as an incentive to come to a mutually acceptable arrangement. If it doesn't then we are truly where Roly fears.

It comes down to the fact that the EU tried to avoid it. If it goes up, it goes up due to our actions, to suggest a vote, to have the vote. All our actions, not the EU. It matters as the UK is responsible for it. Therefore, the EU won't budge.

[Stovicmiller]

We don't want and won't install a hard border and neither will the Irish. Its the EU insisting on a hard border. If we and the Irish won't do it how will the EU make us?