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Thread: O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

  1. #3401
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    Quote Originally Posted by WanChaiMiller View Post
    Please dont attempt pass on the blame. Businesses fear Brexit. The biggest fear is no deal brexit.
    But what is the definition of a deal?
    no one will know what the deal will be for at least 13 months and probably a lot longer. The govt is being made to sign up to a notion where the EU hold all the cards and once they,ve trapped us there,s no going back. Even when we,ve left the EU they will take us to the cleaners. Unbelievably bad negotiating skills forced on us by those that think they know better. In reality they haven,t thought it through.

    The deal that opposers to a full Brexit have insisted on will cause significant problems, disappointment and arguments in due course. This is only the start of some serious problems

  2. #3402
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2 View Post
    If you think the nation wants Boris' deal, why would you fear a referendum?
    Isn’t the reason to fear a further referendum that it might well not settle the issue?

    17 million people voted to leave with the expectation that their desire to do so would be honoured by the Parliament that gave them the vote. A year after the referendum, the two largest parties stood in a General Election on manifestoes that promised to honour its outcome. They have now had a year of Parliament seeming to be intent upon not delivering on that.

    Even if a sufficient number of 2016 Leave voters have now changed their mind to deliver a remain vote, there would inevitably be a large number - many millions - who would feel betrayed and angry by such an outcome. They aren’t going to be quiet and mildly accept such a volte face; they are going to agitate and some will organise, leading to The Brexit Party, or which ever vehicle Farage is using, to become a permanent player in British politics. Every General Election for the next twenty years or so will have the possibility of once again trying to leave on the agenda and, eventually, a party or coalition that promises to leave will take control of Parliament. And the danger for liberal minded people such as you and I is that such a party or coalition may not offer the managed departure that is on offer from Johnson.

    Or, to put it more briefly, the Leave genie is out of the bottle and it isn’t going back in any time soon.
    Last edited by KerrAvon; 21-10-2019 at 08:35 PM.

  3. #3403
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    Quote Originally Posted by MillerBill View Post
    Pathetic Lib Lab liers with the assistance of the slimy remainiac snake Bercow obstruct this country progressing and further delay the EU exit.Businesses in this country, through this uncertainty are struggling and jobs are at risk.Opposition MPs couldn't care a toss about these job losses.85% voted in the last election on the basis Brexit would be honoured.There is only one party now standing for the vote of the people.Labour by pushing for another referendum are not to be trusted ever again,they are an absolute disgrace.
    The Lib Dems stood on a ticket of trying to reverse the outcome of the referendum. They are at least trying to do what they said they would do even if what they promised to do is - in my opinion - misguided.
    Last edited by KerrAvon; 21-10-2019 at 08:31 PM.

  4. #3404
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    If you can ignore the result of the first referendum you can ignore the result of the second one too so totally pointless.

  5. #3405
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2 View Post
    If you think the nation wants Boris' deal, why would you fear a referendum?
    Since we have already voted against remainining in the EU.Only a binary referendum of No deal or the deal that has been agreed with the EU, would be accepted.That is democracy.

  6. #3406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiletyke View Post
    Make it clear
    Which of my two points are you referring to?
    Blaming the EU for domestic government failure :

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y_to_clipboard

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...y_to_clipboard

  7. #3407
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerrAvon View Post
    The Lib Dems stood on a ticket of trying to reverse the outcome of the referendum. They are at least trying to do what they said they would do even if what they promised to do is - in my opinion - misguided.
    Yes you are right Kerr,they were the only party that stood for remaining in the EU and they got 10% backing.That shows what support remain had .

  8. #3408
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerrAvon View Post
    The Lib Dems stood on a ticket of trying to reverse the outcome of the referendum. They are at least trying to do what they said they would do even if what they promised to do is - in my opinion - misguided.
    This is only in recent times though isn,t it.
    Seems like cheap vote buying to me

  9. #3409
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    Quote Originally Posted by great_fire View Post
    If you can ignore the result of the first referendum you can ignore the result of the second one too so totally pointless.
    Lets hope leave win again then - lol.

  10. #3410
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerrAvon View Post
    Isn’t the reason to fear a further referendum that it might well not settle the issue?

    17 million people voted to leave with the expectation that their desire to do so would be honoured by the Parliament that gave them the vote. A year after the referendum, the two largest parties stood in a General Election on manifestoes that promised to honour its outcome. They have now had a year of Parliament seeming to be intent upon not delivering on that.

    Even if a sufficient number of 2016 Leave voters have now changed their mind to deliver a remain vote, there would inevitably be a large number - many millions - who would feel betrayed and angry by such an outcome. They aren’t going to be quiet and mildly accept such a volte face; they are going to agitate and some will organise, leading to The Brexit Party, or which ever vehicle Farage is using, to become a permanent player in British politics. Every General Election for the next twenty years or so will have the possibility of once again trying to leave on the agenda and, eventually, a party or coalition that promises to leave will take control of Parliament. And the danger for liberal minded people such as you and I is that such a party or coalition may not offer the managed departure that is on offer from Johnson.

    Or, to put it more briefly, the Leave genie is out of the bottle and it isn’t going back in any time soon.
    Over a million of the leave voters have died since the referendum and nearly 2 million likely remain voters have entered voting age. Since February the majority of the electorate would have voted for Remain on the basis of demographic shift alone if not a single person changed their vote.

    The mess of Brexit is out of the bottle no matter what, there is no happy outcome, but demographic shift is on the side of remain. We should at least ask the current electorate what they think of the actual deal on offer - that's the very definition of democratic. Many parties and politicians promised many conflicting things, why do the Brexiteers who promised £350m a week to the NHS get a free pass, but parties wanting to give the people a final say on the basis of actual facts get a hard time? Young people should not have to suffer the economic consequences of a protest vote serving a majority that is likely dead and buried

    I think the Breiteer cause will fizzle out if a referendum shows the demographic shift is not on their side and we can put this sorry stain on our history behind us. A huge number of people will feel disenfranchised, and that is tragic, but there has to be a cost for this mess and it shouldn't be the young people who have to suffer any further. The baby boomers aren't leaving a very good legacy.

  11. #3411
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2 View Post
    Over a million of the leave voters have died since the referendum and nearly 2 million likely remain voters have entered voting age. Since February the majority of the electorate would have voted for Remain on the basis of demographic shift alone if not a single person changed their vote.

    The mess of Brexit is out of the bottle no matter what, there is no happy outcome, but demographic shift is on the side of remain. We should at least ask the current electorate what they think of the actual deal on offer - that's the very definition of democratic. Many parties and politicians promised many conflicting things, why do the Brexiteers who promised £350m a week to the NHS get a free pass, but parties wanting to give the people a final say on the basis of actual facts get a hard time? Young people should not have to suffer the economic consequences of a protest vote serving a majority that is likely dead and buried

    I think the Breiteer cause will fizzle out if a referendum shows the demographic shift is not on their side and we can put this sorry stain on our history behind us. A huge number of people will feel disenfranchised, and that is tragic, but there has to be a cost for this mess and it shouldn't be the young people who have to suffer any further. The baby boomers aren't leaving a very good legacy.
    Iceland only has a population of around 340 000


    I want whatever it is the remain voters are taking as none of them seem to have died in the last 3 years
    Last edited by Exiletyke; 21-10-2019 at 09:56 PM.

  12. #3412
    Quote Originally Posted by Exiletyke View Post
    Iceland only has a population of around 340 000


    I want whatever it is the remain voters are taking as none of them seem to have died in the last 3 years
    Thatís the way it happens in John2ís fantasy world.

    He even knows the way new voters will vote

  13. #3413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiletyke View Post
    Iceland only has a population of around 340 000


    I want whatever it is the remain voters are taking as none of them seem to have died in the last 3 years
    "A million leave voters have died",how low can these remoaners get.What about the lies to entice students to vote for labour by promising "no student fees". After they had captured their votes by dishonest means ,Corbyn confessed he could not deliver that but no apology.Also the promise of honouring the leave vote,once again another lie.

  14. #3414
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    Quote Originally Posted by MillerBill View Post
    "A million leave voters have died",how low can these remoaners get.What about the lies to entice students to vote for labour by promising "no student fees". After they had captured their votes by dishonest means ,Corbyn confessed he could not deliver that but no apology.Also the promise of honouring the leave vote,once again another lie.
    The fact that people have died in 2016 is politically neutral: people die. The fact that older people overwhelmingly vote for leave and young voters overwhelmingly vote remain is also backed up in every survey since.

    If the facts upset you, then you probably need to stop being such a snowflake.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8541576.html

  15. #3415
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    Quote Originally Posted by MillerBill View Post
    "A million leave voters have died",how low can these remoaners get.What about the lies to entice students to vote for labour by promising "no student fees". After they had captured their votes by dishonest means ,Corbyn confessed he could not deliver that but no apology.Also the promise of honouring the leave vote,once again another lie.
    That was directed at John2,not to you Tyke.

  16. #3416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grist_To_The_Mill View Post
    That’s the way it happens in John2’s fantasy world.

    He even knows the way new voters will vote
    I don't, but neither do you... hence why we should have a new referendum.

    On the basis of the demographic shift, you have to make the case that the votes of now dead people is more important than the votes of living people who were too young to vote at the time of the referendum that will affect the rest of their life.

  17. #3417
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2 View Post
    The fact that people have died in 2016 is politically neutral: people die. The fact that older people overwhelmingly vote for leave and young voters overwhelmingly vote remain is also backed up in every survey since.

    If the facts upset you, then you probably need to stop being such a snowflake.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8541576.html
    Yet the last referendum on Europe was in 1975.

    No-one died or changed their minds in the 41 years between 1975 and 2016?

    You are fundamentally dishonest.

  18. #3418
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    Quote Originally Posted by great_fire View Post
    Yet the last referendum on Europe was in 1975.

    No-one died or changed their minds in the 41 years between 1975 and 2016?

    You are fundamentally dishonest.
    How on earth have you come to the conclusion that I'm saying nobody changed their minds!?

    You're fundamentally not understanding.

    Let me spell it out. I'm saying remain has a majority on the basis of demographic shift but we have no way to know what the majority of the country wants now we know what the deal looks like unless we have a referendum. Asking the country what it wants on the basis of all the facts is the very epitome of democracy.

  19. #3419
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2 View Post
    Over a million of the leave voters have died since the referendum and nearly 2 million likely remain voters have entered voting age. Since February the majority of the electorate would have voted for Remain on the basis of demographic shift alone if not a single person changed their vote.

    The mess of Brexit is out of the bottle no matter what, there is no happy outcome, but demographic shift is on the side of remain. We should at least ask the current electorate what they think of the actual deal on offer - that's the very definition of democratic. Many parties and politicians promised many conflicting things, why do the Brexiteers who promised £350m a week to the NHS get a free pass, but parties wanting to give the people a final say on the basis of actual facts get a hard time? Young people should not have to suffer the economic consequences of a protest vote serving a majority that is likely dead and buried

    I think the Breiteer cause will fizzle out if a referendum shows the demographic shift is not on their side and we can put this sorry stain on our history behind us. A huge number of people will feel disenfranchised, and that is tragic, but there has to be a cost for this mess and it shouldn't be the young people who have to suffer any further. The baby boomers aren't leaving a very good legacy.
    I agree that analysis of the 2016 vote shows that younger people were more likely to vote Remain than Leave. Following from that it"s hard to argue with the proposition that a higher proportion of the people who have died since then were Leave than Remain voters.

    I think that where your argument falls down is that people do not stop aging after they reach 18. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the likely position of a member of the electorate on the EU remains static as they age. In other words there is no reason to believe that the Leave voters who have died since 2016 have not been replaced by Remainers who have changed their stance.

    I voted remain in 2016, but would have to think long and hard before deciding how to vote in a further referendum.

    You could put your theory to the test in a further referendum, but my observations on that remain. I think it would be incredibly harmful and would be unlikely to solve the issue.

    I also question whether the quality of the debate within a further referendum campaign would be any better than in 2016 such as to leave the electorate better informed, John. Politicians from both sides of the debate are already spinning on the deal. Labour were doing it before the detail of the deal was announced. On here, we've had a harbinger of a new 'Project Fear' with a poster seeming to argue that accepting the deal would see a risk of British workers being given only six days of paid leave per year, even though we seemed to manage perfectly well before EU law on the issue.

    And, of course, if you are right on the demographic point, surely you are only going to have to wait for a Parliament or two before the political make up of the country delivers a strong Parliamentary majority for rejoining the EU?

  20. #3420
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    Quote Originally Posted by John2 View Post
    How on earth have you come to the conclusion that I'm saying nobody changed their minds!?
    The article that you linked to is expressly based upon the premise that nobody has changed their mind.

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