O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[great_fire]

Do you support the deal Fire? Or do you want parliament to block it for you?

I prefer it to whatever the Remainers want, which will be nothing like Brexit at all.

[ragingpup]

I prefer it to whatever the Remainers want, which will be nothing like Brexit at all.

Fair enough. You're happy for parliament to pass it through? Or do you want to try and delay for no deal?

[great_fire]

Fair enough. You're happy for parliament to pass it through? Or do you want to try and delay for no deal?

I want to throw rotten tomatoes at Nick Clegg.

No Deal or election now would be ideal. We should have left in March.

[Exiletyke]

I want to throw rotten tomatoes at Nick Clegg.

No Deal or election now would be ideal. We should have left in March.

Changing tack slightly where is the money coming from to pay for all these new hospitals & extra money into the NHS Extra 20,000 police especially as we are going to continue to pay 30 odd billion pa [I think] into the EU?
Just wondering

[KerrAvon]

This is the daftest thing you have ever come up with and that is saying something.
The referendum, the last election, the tory leadership contest have all been about the fight for the heart of the Conservative party with your one nation tories in one corner and the hardened euro sceptics in the other corner. It has now come to the boil even more as the euro sceptics are behind a deal which on paper is almost identical to the one they decried, simply because the person putting it forward is one of theirs. The hilarious thing about it all is that for 15 years Johnson was far more pro-eu than Corbyn ever was.
All the MP's in parliament are conflicted now between their ideologies, attempting to follow what they see as democracy (ie voting against their conscience by voting the way their constituents did) and political tactics/personal ambitions.

I've read and re-read your post, Tony and I can't work out which part of mine you think is daft.

It is lazy and simplistic to attribute the referendum to divisions within the Tory Party over Europe (but you are certainly not alone in doing it). The rise of the Referendum Party and it's successor, UKIP arose from a growing disquiet in the country over Europe. That had very little to do with the Tories and far more to do with the growing federalism within the EU and a measure of good old fashioned xenophobia after the influx of people from the Accession 8 countries in 2004.

The UK has repeatedly resisted EU federalism - you have the budget rebate, the opt out on various EU Treaties on issues like the Social Chapter, Schengen arrangements and most notably membership of the Euro - and the EU was becoming two speed in consequence of that. From a political point of view, something had to give and it did in 2011 when the EU effectively circumvented a British veto on a response to the financial crisis. From that point, the die was cast.

It is lazy and simplistic to talk about how similar the Johnson deal is to May’s (but you are certainly not alone in doing it). Of course it is – the vast majority of it is technical and non-controversial (that is one reason why the demands of Parliament for time to scrutinise the Johnson deal was a tad disingenuous – they had seen most of it almost a year ago).

I think you are right when you say that MPs are conflicted but I can't go as far as saying that they all are. There are numerous motives driving the actions of MPs. Barron is clearly doing what he thinks right, knowing that the boys from Momentum can’t do anything to him. Some will be doing what they think represents the wishes of their constituents. Others will simply be following their party whip for fear of damaging their careers.

[ragingpup]

I want to throw rotten tomatoes at Nick Clegg.

No Deal or election now would be ideal. We should have left in March.

Yes. But do you want parliament to intervene and reject it? Simple yes or no?

[Exiletyke]

I've read and re-read your post, Tony and I can't work out which part of mine you think is daft.

It is lazy and simplistic to attribute the referendum to divisions within the Tory Party over Europe (but you are certainly not alone in doing it). The rise of the Referendum Party and it's successor, UKIP arose from a growing disquiet in the country over Europe. That had very little to do with the Tories and far more to do with the growing federalism within the EU and a measure of good old fashioned xenophobia after the influx of people from the Accession 8 countries in 2004.

The UK has repeatedly resisted EU federalism - you have the budget rebate, the opt out on various EU Treaties on issues like the Social Chapter, Schengen arrangements and most notably membership of the Euro - and the EU was becoming two speed in consequence of that. From a political point of view, something had to give and it did in 2011 when the EU effectively circumvented a British veto on a response to the financial crisis. From that point, the die was cast.

It is lazy and simplistic to talk about how similar the Johnson deal is to May’s (but you are certainly not alone in doing it). Of course it is – the vast majority of it is technical and non-controversial (that is one reason why the demands of Parliament for time to scrutinise the Johnson deal was a tad disingenuous – they had seen most of it almost a year ago).

I think you are right when you say that MPs are conflicted but I can't go as far as saying that they all are. There are numerous motives driving the actions of MPs. Barron is clearly doing what he thinks right, knowing that the boys from Momentum can’t do anything to him. Some will be doing what they think represents the wishes of their constituents. Others will simply be following their party whip for fear of damaging their careers.

Given Johnson's duplicitous nature how would you expect any politician to receive a 500 & odd page document & check its' contents against the provisions of the previous doc to be sure ,shall we say have not been changed, without comparing it with the doc they saw almost a year ago not a task to be undertaken in 3 days That's one thing that's daft about your latest post
Perhaps that's what those in the legal profession do
BTW I care little for many of our so called leaders [you know, those in Parliament] so my comments are not driven by any allegiance to any political party