O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[ragingpup]

Corbyn needs to sort out what he ACTUALLY stands for.He has done a " U Turn",after condemning the EU all his political lifetime, he has rowed in with Islington lovie dovies .The likes of Geldoff and his very wealthy layabout friends on that millionaire's yacht who put two fingers up at the downtrodden trawlermen, who were protesting about the EU was an absolute disgrace!! Come on Corbyn be honest,why be on the side of big business who are trying to please the shareholders by having a cosy relationship with the corrupt EU.Yes "Project fear" will be in full swing again with all the exaggerated predictions based on the worst possible outcomes.They never get it right but always seem to get a lot of coverage through the BBC and other networks who support the EU.

Good post Bill. Similar to Lasterman above. I get your frustration for Corbyn to come out in favour of hard Brexit.

But can anyone explain how it might benefit Corbyn and the Labour Party of the last manifesto to sever their ties with the EU, especially the single market and customs union? What exactly are the EU doing that would stop Corbyn carrying out his manifesto commitments? I was wrong in thinking that the EU might stop Labour improving workers and environmental rights but Kerr has put me right on that - they could not stop him doing so if he so wished.

You might know his prior anti-EU speeches better than me, I don't know exactly why he has opposed it, but I'm guessing it is on the lines of opposing their centrist neo-liberal outlook. And I get that, I would agree with him, but trying to be pragmatic here, I can't see how a Labour party would hugely benefit from a Hard Brexit? How would Corbyn's manifesto aims be improved by a Hard Brexit along the lines of that you want to see? Maybe someone could help me on that one?

[millmoormagic]

Corbyn needs to sort out what he ACTUALLY stands for.He has done a " U Turn",after condemning the EU all his political lifetime, he has rowed in with Islington lovie dovies .The likes of Geldoff and his very wealthy layabout friends on that millionaire's yacht who put two fingers up at the downtrodden trawlermen, who were protesting about the EU was an absolute disgrace!! Come on Corbyn be honest,why be on the side of big business who are trying to please the shareholders by having a cosy relationship with the corrupt EU.Yes "Project fear" will be in full swing again with all the exaggerated predictions based on the worst possible outcomes.They never get it right but always seem to get a lot of coverage through the BBC and other networks who support the EU.

I do understand this argument, Corbyn has indeed always been anti EU, but i think everyone's missing a massive bit of truth about Brexit, every possible outcome IS going to damage the UK, it's people and workforce, it's ability to look after the weakest in society, that's not 'project fear', that i'm afraid is FACT....

[Exiletyke]

Fair point, Exile, I ain't that bright. But not so dense as to really take Kerr's point on Harding's address seriously!

I think you do yourself an injustice rp but it irks me to see good points made either ignored or twisted with monotonous regularity
Just ask yourself has he ever ever admitted that he is wrong I think you'll be hard pressed to find an example so that must tell you the futility of you or anyone else trying to enter into any meaningful dialogue
Someone with such a flawed character cannot be right in the head
but fear not KA will be along shortly to once again put you right

Anyway best of luck

[ragingpup]

I do understand this argument, Corbyn has indeed always been anti EU, but i think everyone's missing a massive bit of truth about Brexit, every possible outcome IS going to damage the UK, it's people and workforce, it's ability to look after the weakest in society, that's not 'project fear', that i'm afraid is FACT....

That's pretty much what worries me - it seems clear and obvious that compromises on the terms of trade to create border friction will obviously have a negative impact. I'd need to be pretty convinced about what the positives would be on leaving the EU (or more specifically the Single Market and the CU) to convince me on a harder Brexit and to want to take the economic risk.

[KerrAvon]

1. You absolutely are, as you are repeatedly unable to define how your personal policies differ from conservative policies and explain why you don't vote for them (apart from an evasive (my local Tory is rubbish!)
2. I believe that the Conservative party, to solve the anti-EU split in their own party - instead of clarifying their intentions on the EU amongst themselves and then working that into their manifesto along with other policies, chose a cowardly option in putting it to a national referendum and causing the damage which Harding eloquently describes. They didn't have to do this, there was no clear public call for it and we see the damage clearly in social and incoming economic terms.
3. Where's 3? What have you got against 3?
4. Not requesting you post to Harding (duuh!) - but repond to the points he is making on the points he raises in 2
5. We know that (duuh!). But you seem to be implying that through your words "Brexit, as voted for in the referendum" that Labour have a clear plan to do something other than Leave the EU?

2. The Conservatives were quite clear within their 2015 manifesto that they would offer an in/out referendum were they to be elected. They won the General Election on that manifesto and kept their word by introducing the Referendum Bill into Parliament where - guess what - the Labour Party under the leadership of Corbyn supported its passage (albeit the man himself didn’t bother to turn up for any of the votes). The public then voted for Brexit. Both you and Harding appear to miss those bits out. I wonder if you are both working from the same Momentum crib sheet?

And what of manifesto promises? Labour’s manifesto from 2017 says 'Labour accepts the referendum result' and yet it is clear that the party, insofar as it has a policy, is swinging behind a further referendum. It also says later 'Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union' and yet you support the Norway model in which it would continue and as you yourself have acknowledged the recurring feature of Labour's Outlook on Brexit is to protect jobs by negotiating a customs union arrangement very similar to the existing one as a priority. Of course this won't come without some concessions, probably on retaining free movement although of course, as the opposition, they are careful in not revealing that when they don't have too. On that basis, I’m sure you would agree that Labour manifesto promises aren’t worth the paper they are written on.

3. Point taken. My maths is on a par with the woman that Corbyn wants to appoint as Home Secretary.

4. So when you suggested that I was being discourteous by not responding to Harding’s letter, you were not expecting me to respond to him. How does that work? Where does the alleged discourtesy come into it?

5. The meaning of Brexit did seem pretty obvious, but given that you asked and having regard to your state of utter confusion last week over when and what Davies said and the difference between withdrawal deals, transition periods and political statements, I thought it unwise to assume any level of understanding upon your part. I don’t think Labour have a clear plan on anything (and, as you acknowledge, I think they are being deliberately opaque upon freedom of movement), but it is clear that they are coming to the point where they support another referendum.

[KerrAvon]

I had you down as an intelligent sort rp so why do you keep banging your head against his/her brick & thick wall?
Is it because it's better when you stop? [sorry forgot you don't stop]
Who else would interpret your Harding post as "don't have his address"; but it's you who finishes up explaining
When will the penny drop?
10/10 for persistence though
This is not a dig btw just an observation

Yet another post about me... your obsession appear to be growing. I don't mind, but they do tend to clutter up interesting threads. It might be better for you to just start a thread about me in which you and my other fans can swap posts about how much you don't like me. It would certainly be more courteous to posters who don't want to wade through your constant written flatus.

[KerrAvon]

That's pretty much what worries me - it seems clear and obvious that compromises on the terms of trade to create border friction will obviously have a negative impact. I'd need to be pretty convinced about what the positives would be on leaving the EU (or more specifically the Single Market and the CU) to convince me on a harder Brexit and to want to take the economic risk.

You are ignoring the FACT that people voted to leave the EU despite clear warnings of the economic consequences of that. You might not like that, it's possible that I don't, but it's what happened.

[ragingpup]

You are ignoring the FACT that people voted to leave the EU despite clear warnings of the economic consequences of that. You might not like that, it's possible that I don't, but it's what happened.

So are you saying that all of the the 52% voted to leave the EU in full awareness of and despite the economic costs that have become increasingly clear since the referendum. Are all 52% happy to take that risk now, in light of more data as to what the different types of deal are?

You seem to know this so tell me: what % of the 52% voted for a no deal and to several all ties with the EU at whatever cost? What % of the 52% voted for a hard Brexit but with a EU deal on trade? What % of the 52% voted for May's deal? What % of the 52% voted for a Norway style deal?

We know that 48% of us voted to Remain.

I'm personally happy to leave the EU but will argue to keep as close trade ties to the EU as possible. What is your preferred outcome in Leaving the EU?

[KerrAvon]

So are you saying that all of the the 52% voted to leave the EU in full awareness of and despite the economic costs that have become increasingly clear since the referendum. Are all 52% happy to take that risk now, in light of more data as to what the different types of deal are?

You seem to know this so tell me: what % of the 52% voted for a no deal and to several all ties with the EU at whatever cost? What % of the 52% voted for a hard Brexit but with a EU deal on trade? What % of the 52% voted for May's deal? What % of the 52% voted for a Norway style deal?

We know that 48% of us voted to Remain.

I'm personally happy to leave the EU but will argue to keep as close trade ties to the EU as possible. What is your preferred outcome in Leaving the EU?

Of course I am not saying that everyone who voted leave was aware of the potential economic costs (I was threatened with a ban on Tykes Mad for pointing some of them out as I was upsetting the ‘I don’t want to hear Polish being spoken’ brigade). I can always tell that you are getting flustered when you start taking such silly ‘straw man’ points. I assume that it happens when you been taken too far away from the comfort of your Momentum issue scripts.

I’m saying that people were warned in clear terms of the possible economic costs and that many chose not to listen, because their own beliefs made them happy to accept the ‘project fear’ tag. And then they voted leave. Do you think the standard of debate would be any better in a further election? I don’t. Hard Brexiteers were busily trashing the BoE’s forecasts today. The EU have made it clear that there will be no renegotiation, but Labour continue to peddle the myth that there can be if they win a GE.

And it’s not all about the economy. In addition there is the social costs of membership. Whatever you and I might think about it, large numbers of people are unsettled and unhappy about the large scale immigration that followed 2004. Perhaps some people made the choice to accept some economic pain to stop that?

You appear willing to ignore the vote and appear happy with Labour going back on their manifesto. That’s fine. It’s your choice.

So suppose you get your second referendum. What questions are going on it? If it’s a three way vote (May’s deal - No deal – Remain) the leavers are going to be up in arms because it’s a rigged election that will split the leave vote. If it’s a two way vote (Remain – Leave) it takes us no further from where we are now and if it’s two way (May – No deal) the remainers will not accept the outcome.

Most importantly, if you manage to obtain a remain vote, where does that leave us? A significant part of the population will feel mightily pyssed off at having their views overturned and you will have set a precedent that if you don’t like the outcome of a referendum, you can bellyache until you get another one. So how many years before the remainers secure a further in out vote? Two years – five years? You would hardly be in a position to be able to argue against having one.

I think it also possible that the referendum may well have changed the relationship between the UK and EU for good. For the last 20 years or so, the UK has been leading a small group of countries who have resisted the federalist instincts and intentions of France and Germany, notably by declining to join the Euro. I wonder whether we would have the credibility to continue that fight if we do a 180 and pull back from Article 50.

In my view, the country voted leave and leave we must. I’m happy to do it on the best terms possible, short of the Brexit in name only of deals like Norway has.

P.s. I hear a whisper that the DUP are taking a kicking from their supporters and are looking for a way to get out of the corner they have painted themselves into over May's deal. Who knows?

[animallittle3]

Animal the City will continue to flourish, more jobs are being created than lost.

No-one wants to work in Frankfurt as it closes at 8.0 O'Clock and its difficult to get the best people to work there, Paris is also a problem due to the French employment laws.

1 in 5 trades in the world flows through the city

This is the interesting GM , we may not get along too great but I prefer to communicate with people such as yourself who clearly know what the score is rather than the Monday Morning Quarterback Back taking his train to work , assuming it turns up of course .

I'll level with you , I ain't got a problem with money getting made , people getting employed and the boost to the economy .

There's a but ......


You guys scare the shyte out of me and much of what the country is today can be traced back to your shenanigans a decade ago .

Inadvertently you elected Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party , without the crash he wouldn't be around , a chain of events you might say .

Does it ever cross your mind you could actually work under a Corbyn government ?

If not , why not ? , I'd be sincerely interested to know .