O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[ragingpup]

Whatever anyone might think about her politics, May has the almost impossible task of steering a course between the requirement of the referendum result that we leave and the likely hardships that will flow from that (an act of national self harm as an MP put it last week). The withdrawal deal is clearly not perfect, but no deal that flowed from such difficult and protracted negotiations could be.

Pretty much agree with that. The big question is what deal will satisfy the most people in our split population and of which minority who do not get their way are we most scared of?

[BigLadonOS]

All this **** kicked off because May went into negotiations with an inferiority complex :-( she went in there with the we are a little country attitude instead of a strong powerful country stance.

The EU picked up on it right away and decided to go down the threat rout because they new she would swallow it.

I voted to leave the EU but I wanted to do it from a powerful position (which we have) and dictate to the EU what we wanted from them. I think they now see the resolve of the country and are starting to panic a little bit hence the "we will take you back with open arms if you want to come back, no hard feelings" vote they had the other day.

As a labour voter I do not want a GE until this business is over but I do want to see May step or be pushed down and a new leader put in position. One who is strong about what the people want and who will go in and deliver that to the EU. One that will not take threats lightly and definitely one who will not stand for breaking up the UK.

May has let the Irish down very badly indeed and for that alone she must be replaced. May is full of bravado akin to a keyboard warrior but she shakes like a bush in a strong wind when faced with the actual doing what she says part.

I wouldn't even mind paying a small amount to the EU for FOM and a trade deal but I am afraid that is as much as I would be willing to do. If they would not agree to that I would just leave without a deal and work from there with the UK in tact which would leave us in a very strong position to negotiate from like we should have from the start.

What we need now more than ever is that Bulldog Spirit we are known for.

[Exiletyke]

Agree
May should never have been in charge
When has she produced what she has spouted; obfuscation from start to finish
Look no further than her tenure as Home Secretary
Bulldog spirit is what Cameron tried to sell us just before he ignominiously buggered off
and we have had nothing but bullsh1t spirit ever since

[animallittle3]

Yep, I totally get why it wouldn't be welcome by many of the 52% but what I was asking is why you think the EU wouldn't welcome it? If May's deal doesn't go through then we either walk away with no deal (which I think has the least mandate from both MPs and the country at large) or go back with an amended deal, if the EU will be willing to negotiate. The question is (for me anyway) what kind of deal can we do that has a chance of getting through the commons? Some are still pushing for Canada +++ but that would still leave the backstop issue. The other is to what extent can a single market focused deal be put through whilst making concessions on the 4 freedoms? I'd have totally agreed with you that this is not possible but Kerr has convinced me that the EU have accepted great suffering (for some mysterious reason?!) for this current deal, so why not try negotiating along those lines to get a deal that would solve the backstop issue and actually get through parliament? I can't see any other way forward at the moment.

Well the PM and Chancellor believe it's this deal or nothing , where nothing actually lands will be interesting .

Very very risky a people's vote or referendum depending on how you dress it up , if the deal is rejected by the electorate , then what ?

The 52% could hold if they have to vote again and the EU haven't exactly grown in stature during the last two years either with the UK public .

[animallittle3]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-is-a-delusion

[ragingpup]

Well the PM and Chancellor believe it's this deal or nothing , where nothing actually lands will be interesting .

Very very risky a people's vote or referendum depending on how you dress it up , if the deal is rejected by the electorate , then what ?

The 52% could hold if they have to vote again and the EU haven't exactly grown in stature during the last two years either with the UK public .

I think if the vote was May's deal or No Deal, I would vote May's deal, as would most of the country. If that came to pass fair enough. But the problem is the commons seem to be rejecting the deal for reasons discussed on here. If that happens, we can try to negotiate and see if Hammond is right. What else can we do? If the EU say no, then I guess we might have to throw it to the people between those two outcomes? But obviously many are stating the case for Remain to be on the ballot paper also. Not me though. At least not at this stage, although a lot can change in a day let alone a week - we'll have to see what happens after the vote in the commons.

[Exiletyke]

I think if the vote was May's deal or No Deal, I would vote May's deal, as would most of the country. If that came to pass fair enough. But the problem is the commons seem to be rejecting the deal for reasons discussed on here. If that happens, we can try to negotiate and see if Hammond is right. What else can we do? If the EU say no, then I guess we might have to throw it to the people between those two outcomes? But obviously many are stating the case for Remain to be on the ballot paper also. Not me though. At least not at this stage, although a lot can change in a day let alone a week - we'll have to see what happens after the vote in the commons.

Hammond repeated the prime minister’s claim that the alternatives to the negotiated deal were no deal or no Brexit. Both of those options, he said, would leave the UK a fractured society and a divided nation.


Hasn't it dawned on him that following almost a decade of Tory rule the UK is already a fractured society & a divided nation
Isn't that what the referendum [sorry peoples vote] told us

[frogmiller]

Hammond repeated the prime minister’s claim that the alternatives to the negotiated deal were no deal or no Brexit. Both of those options, he said, would leave the UK a fractured society and a divided nation.


Hasn't it dawned on him that following almost a decade of Tory rule the UK is already a fractured society & a divided nation
Isn't that what the referendum [sorry peoples vote] told us

Any government regardless of the party splits the country. A good quality of the British people is that they know that they have another 5 years to change the direction if they wish to. It is rare that something comes along that unifies the people of the UK but there is an underlying tolerance to politics. Or there was!

This referendum was down to one mans ego and he fled when the going got tough! Cameron will go down in history as a Tw@t!

If the UK decides to go for a second 'Peoples vote' it would be welcomed in the most of Europe. The French polititions will be the most scathing but the light at the end of the tunnel is that Mâcron is doing U-turns like every other French President has done.

[great_fire]

That "People's Vote" crap came from Soros, it's got nothing to do with "the people", who have already had a vote.

[DaveyJohn]

This thread has been one hell of a read and I certainly don't feel I am qualified to offer any educated opinion on what is transpiring.
But I will say this, if another vote happens and the option for "Remain" is on the ballot paper then that will be extremely dangerous and will only complicate the mess even further. I say this for the following reasons.

1) If we go to a straight up replay of the original referendum, ie "Leave" or "Remain," then not only does that make a mockery of referendums and democracy in general, but what would happen if the results were the same? There is a belief now amongst Remainers that a re run of the referendum would prompt a vote to stay in the EU and we could just forget the whole thing. But I honestly don't think it would be so straightforward. Yes, no doubt there are plenty who voted to leave that would now vote to stay due to the mess that has ensued in the negotiations and the projections of doom in a post-Brexit world. But equally I have spoken to many who wanted to Remain originally that would now vote to Leave. The reasons vary. Some say the negotiations have shown the "true colours" of the EU (or the colours that the voter simply didn't bother to research prior to the vote). Others would vote to Leave purely as a protest due to the lack of respect for the democratic process and the acceptance that the original Referendum result should stand.

2. A Referendum with the options of "No Deal", "Mays Deal" or "Remain" would be a stacked deck against anyone wanting to Leave. For example, if the result echoed the original referendum in that 48% would vote for Remain, but the Leave vote was fractured into two options (say 28% vote for May, 24% vote for No Deal), then Remain would claim they had won by a huge margin even though 52% of the voters would still be voting to Leave. Plus there will be Leavers who will say they haven't been represented because none of the options are appealing.

It's a bloody mess, but it was always going to be. The original Referendum result didn't fracture society, it merely demonstrated how divided society was becoming.

Whatever happens and whatever Brexit we go for, we absolutely cannot entertain the idea of Remain. The EU would make an example of us, a bit like the ****age kid who runs away from home but returns a few months later because they can't function away from their parents. They will hug us upon learning we wanted to stay, but they'd make sure we learned our lesson for daring to try and leave. Plus society would be more fractured than before, as I'm sure there'd be plenty of people who wouldn't take a reversal of the original result quietly.