O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[DaveyJohn]

Fair points Davey but if "most on the Leave deal would "prefer some sort of deal" why are you appearing to discount their opinions on the deal that the government has secured, and will most likely amend further? You and I don't like this particular deal but for me, for all it's shortfalls on clarity, it's not a million miles away from what I would call a fair compromise, given the complexities of the Irish border.

So how can it be settled? How can we find out the extent that the nation accepts whatever compromise we agree with the EU on behalf of all of us and weigh that against the number of people who prefer a No Deal. I can only come back to the public vote on Gov't Deal v No Deal, with Remain not on the cards. Why wouldn't that be fair? If you're correct that most would want a No Deal out of those two options, then so be it. End of.

Have I made any comment on May's deal or any other deal? I don't think I have, I was responding to your confident assumption that only a small but passionate minority of the 52% who voted to Leave would accept No Deal and therefore to implement that would be the least democratic option.

I can't speak for 17million plus people, but the conversations I've had with Brexiteers follow a similar pattern of they simply voted to Leave the EU. They did so firmly with the knowledge that a "clean" break with No Deal was a very real possibility but they still put that tick in the Leave box. Much of the sentiment I've heard from Brexit voters (I'm talking members of public here not MP's and "experts") is that they would be content with the UK starting negotiations from a No Deal position and any deal on the table would be a bonus not a necessity. The clamor to get a deal began when the referendum vote came in and many experts and MPs etc suggested that No Deal would be a disaster. Then there are some people suggesting that it wouldn't be that bad, who do we believe? What are the agendas of people making such claims?

I agree with you that it's going to be very difficult to settle fairly and I do not have the answer. I don't think anyone does, just like nobody truly knows what will happen with any given Brexit outcome.

For what it's worth I don't know what to make of May's deal and the complexities of the Irish border are proving a real issue. I guess we will find out how workable the deal is once it goes to the vote.

A public vote on Gov't Deal vs No Deal would be interesting, because as you alluded to further up the thread, how would the 48% who opted to Remain vote? I would also confidently suggest that the section of people you talked about in one of your posts who prefer a soft Brexit with Customs Union etc still intact would be made up mostly of Remainers who have accepted that the original referendum result should stand.

[Exiletyke]

Have I made any comment on May's deal or any other deal? I don't think I have, I was responding to your confident assumption that only a small but passionate minority of the 52% who voted to Leave would accept No Deal and therefore to implement that would be the least democratic option.

I can't speak for 17million plus people, but the conversations I've had with Brexiteers follow a similar pattern of they simply voted to Leave the EU. They did so firmly with the knowledge that a "clean" break with No Deal was a very real possibility but they still put that tick in the Leave box. Much of the sentiment I've heard from Brexit voters (I'm talking members of public here not MP's and "experts") is that they would be content with the UK starting negotiations from a No Deal position and any deal on the table would be a bonus not a necessity. The clamor to get a deal began when the referendum vote came in and many experts and MPs etc suggested that No Deal would be a disaster. Then there are some people suggesting that it wouldn't be that bad, who do we believe? What are the agendas of people making such claims?

I agree with you that it's going to be very difficult to settle fairly and I do not have the answer. I don't think anyone does, just like nobody truly knows what will happen with any given Brexit outcome.

For what it's worth I don't know what to make of May's deal and the complexities of the Irish border are proving a real issue. I guess we will find out how workable the deal is once it goes to the vote.

A public vote on Gov't Deal vs No Deal would be interesting, because as you alluded to further up the thread, how would the 48% who opted to Remain vote? I would also confidently suggest that the section of people you talked about in one of your posts who prefer a soft Brexit with Customs Union etc still intact would be made up mostly of Remainers who have accepted that the original referendum result should stand.

I would also confidently suggest that the section of people you talked about in one of your posts who prefer a soft Brexit with Customs Union etc still intact would be made up mostly of Remainers who have accepted that the original referendum result should stand. [/Quote]


Don't you think that is a bit contradictory DJ?
CU & Brexit don't co exist

[Exiletyke]

I would also confidently suggest that the section of people you talked about in one of your posts who prefer a soft Brexit with Customs Union etc still intact would be made up mostly of Remainers who have accepted that the original referendum result should stand.

Don't you think that is a bit contradictory DJ?
CU & Brexit don't co exist[/QUOTE]

Just read A David Lloyd George quote which seems very apt

"Don't be afraid to take a big step if one is indicated. You can't cross a chasm in two small jumps."

[WanChaiMiller]

this country has made a massive contribution to europe for decades in peacetime and war and they are pyssing all over us .

I think this sums up the arrogence of many brexiteers. There is a misguided assumption that Britain are benefactors and, in return, Europe owes us a living.

[Exiletyke]

I think this sums up the arrogence of many brexiteers. There is a misguided assumption that Britain are benefactors and, in return, Europe owes us a living.

Arrogance? Misguided assumption?
So we are not net contributors to the EU then
So we only paid off the massive loan in 2006[I think that was the date] we owed to the USA for the war debt of over £21 billion although the USA made a very tidy sum from lend leasing to many nations
But you're right mate Europe owes us bugger all as I think is amply demonstrated in our Brexit negotiations even freezing us out of the Galileo space satellite progamme in spite of us already having contributed about £1.6 billion

[DaveyJohn]

I would also confidently suggest that the section of people you talked about in one of your posts who prefer a soft Brexit with Customs Union etc still intact would be made up mostly of Remainers who have accepted that the original referendum result should stand.


Don't you think that is a bit contradictory DJ?
CU & Brexit don't co exist

Yes I totally agree they don't co exist. I was making reference to one of Ragingpups earlier posts where he split the current national opinion into 5 sub categories;

1. No Deal
2. Hard Brexit
3. May's Deal
4. Soft Brexit with CU etc intact
5. Remain.

That's from memory I haven't scrolled back up so I apologise if there is something wrong. My point was, I would suggest that anyone who's opinion was in line with number 4 would probably have originally voted Remain. But since the referendum gave us a Leave vote, I would guess that these people are respecting the democartic process enough to honour Brexit, but want to make it as soft as possible. I can't imagine for one minute that anyone who voted to Leave in 2016 would have done so hoping that we'd keep all these arrangements in place, what would be the point? We'd still be as good as in the EU, only with no voting rights.

[WanChaiMiller]

Arrogance? Misguided assumption?
So we are not net contributors to the EU then
So we only paid off the massive loan in 2006[I think that was the date] we owed to the USA for the war debt of over £21 billion although the USA made a very tidy sum from lend leasing to many nations
But you're right mate Europe owes us bugger all as I think is amply demonstrated in our Brexit negotiations even freezing us out of the Galileo space satellite progamme in spite of us already having contributed about £1.6 billion

Bingo...youve nailed it in one. Strengthened my argument and no need for me to reply.

[animallittle3]

Bingo...youve nailed it in one. Strengthened my argument and no need for me to reply.

Strengthened it by mistaking arrogance for fact you mean .

[Exiletyke]

Just heard Boris on the Marr show saying no one wants a no deal. Neither side wants to go out with a no deal. Thinks he means it's bonkers crashing out to trade under WTO terms. At least hes consistant and said the same during the referendum campaign.

All part of the huge end game scam

[Exiletyke]

Yes I totally agree they don't co exist. I was making reference to one of Ragingpups earlier posts where he split the current national opinion into 5 sub categories;

1. No Deal
2. Hard Brexit
3. May's Deal
4. Soft Brexit with CU etc intact
5. Remain.

That's from memory I haven't scrolled back up so I apologise if there is something wrong. My point was, I would suggest that anyone who's opinion was in line with number 4 would probably have originally voted Remain. But since the referendum gave us a Leave vote, I would guess that these people are respecting the democartic process enough to honour Brexit, but want to make it as soft as possible. I can't imagine for one minute that anyone who voted to Leave in 2016 would have done so hoping that we'd keep all these arrangements in place, what would be the point? We'd still be as good as in the EU, only with no voting rights.

Still not sure what you are suggesting
If these people want to respect the leave vote but want to make it as soft as possible by remaining in the CU aren't honouring the vote at all
It's what we have all been fed on since the vote ie we respect the result of the referendum but then proceed to ignore it

You can't leave the EU & remain in the CU [ bit like being a bit pregnant]