O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[ragingpup]

So, to be clear, your position, and that of Labour is that you want the country to be in a position where the EU makes laws that the UK is required to follow (enforced by which body? The ECJ?). And, in consequence of that, you and the Labour Party are saying that you are willing to have the British people made subject to laws over which they have no democratic control?

Those are questions that lend themselves to yes or no answers.

The answers to those are in an ideal world No, I would like the UK to have complete control over it's own laws and destiny. But I would also like frictionless trade with our nearest countries that demonstrably enhances our economy and has helped to maintain a war free Europe. We democratically voted to leave the institution, but we are in the process of negotiating our future with them. That's what we all have a say on. You, me, animal and everybody are all having a say on that, albeit it on a footy message board!

I'm a little surprised that, as someone who voted Remain, you seem to be taking such a 'hard Brexit' stance when our future relationship is still up for negotiation. Why is that and how do you reconcile that stance with why you voted Remain?

(my own stance differs from the Labour one by the way. I'd go along with this deal but just need to legislate against a push from the PM to drive us to No Deal at the end of the transition period).

[KerrAvon]

Can't find it - what post number, I'll have a read.

I’m not going to trawl through 163 pages for you, raging, particularly when there is no reason to do so – I’m sure that you could still find the May deal and political declaration on the internet. The thrust of that political declaration was quite clear, which made part of Labour’s stated reason for opposing it (three times) all the more absurd (and untrue?).

[KerrAvon]

The answers to those are in an ideal world No, I would like the UK to have complete control over it's own laws and destiny. But I would also like frictionless trade with our nearest countries that demonstrably enhances our economy and has helped to maintain a war free Europe. We democratically voted to leave the institution, but we are in the process of negotiating our future with them. That's what we all have a say on. You, me, animal and everybody are all having a say on that, albeit it on a footy message board!

I'm a little surprised that, as someone who voted Remain, you seem to be taking such a 'hard Brexit' stance when our future relationship is still up for negotiation. Why is that and how do you reconcile that stance with why you voted Remain?

(my own stance differs from the Labour one by the way. I'd go along with this deal but just need to legislate against a push from the PM to drive us to No Deal at the end of the transition period).

In the absence of an ideal world, I prefer to live in one where I have at least some democratic control over the laws that affect me. I think it clear that is a point upon which I part company with you and the Labour Party.

I voted remain, but the remain side of the argument lost. I’m now interested in the UK leaving the EU on the least damaging terms available.

Because I am a fan of democratic accountability, I dislike Norway style BRINO deals, which would have us taking laws over which we have no control.

The May deal envisaged a softer exit and a closer future relationship than the Johnson deal, but it isn’t available because Parliament voted it down three times. I have to say that I was also very uncomfortable about the backstop, which raised at least the possibility of the UK being left in a 'half in - half out' state akin to a Norway/BRINO type arrangment. The Johnson deal is much better on Ireland; something had to give – either the wishes of the DUP or the wishes of the Irish government. I’m glad that Johnson settled on the former, given that not doing so would involve a risk of a return to violence. And the notion of consent is crucial.

For my part, Parliament seems locked upon a course that risks either no deal or no Brexit, with the remain and hard Brexiteer factions playing a game of chicken with the democratic and economic well-being of the country respectively. The Johnson deal is workable and strikes an acceptable balance to me.

As I have pointed out on this and other threads, any Free Trade agreement will have level playing field provisions in it (you will recall that I pointed to the Boeing/Airbus litigation arising from alleged breaches of the provisions in a WTO arrangment). Labour are talking about workers rights, but are strangley silent upon the state aid provisions that will almost certainly stop them splurging taxpayer's money on lame duck companies every time a TU and its block vote come knocking.

You have criticised the likes of gf for taking his politics from rather dodgy websites, but I do wonder if you are doing the same thing. The notion that Johnson or anyone else in the Tories would seriously seek a ‘no deal’ outcome at the end of the transition period makes no sense at all. The Tories are, if nothing else, committed to free market economics and free trade and would clearly seek a good trading relationship with the EU. It’s kind of ironic to see those from the Left arguing for free trade when the anti-globalism activists who occasionally turn out to vandalise city centres are generally drawn from that wing of politics.

How do you think it possible to rule out a no deal outcome at the end of the transition period? How would that work? We will have left the EU and so I assume that you are arguing for the possibility of endless extensions to the transition period?

[ragingpup]

In the absence of an ideal world, I prefer to live in one where I have at least some democratic control over the laws that affect me. I think it clear that is a point upon which I part company with you and the Labour Party.

I voted remain, but the remain side of the argument lost. I’m now interested in the UK leaving the EU on the least damaging terms available.

Because I am a fan of democratic accountability, I dislike Norway style BRINO deals, which would have us taking laws over which we have no control.

The May deal envisaged a softer exit and a closer future relationship than the Johnson deal, but it isn’t available because Parliament voted it down three times. I have to say that I was also very uncomfortable about the backstop, which raised at least the possibility of the UK being left in a 'half in - half out' state akin to a Norway/BRINO type arrangment. The Johnson deal is much better on Ireland; something had to give – either the wishes of the DUP or the wishes of the Irish government. I’m glad that Johnson settled on the former, given that not doing so would involve a risk of a return to violence. And the notion of consent is crucial.

For my part, Parliament seems locked upon a course that risks either no deal or no Brexit, with the remain and hard Brexiteer factions playing a game of chicken with the democratic and economic well-being of the country respectively. The Johnson deal is workable and strikes an acceptable balance to me.

As I have pointed out on this and other threads, any Free Trade agreement will have level playing field provisions in it (you will recall that I pointed to the Boeing/Airbus litigation arising from alleged breaches of the provisions in a WTO arrangment). Labour are talking about workers rights, but are strangley silent upon the state aid provisions that will almost certainly stop them splurging taxpayer's money on lame duck companies every time a TU and its block vote come knocking.

You have criticised the likes of gf for taking his politics from rather dodgy websites, but I do wonder if you are doing the same thing. The notion that Johnson or anyone else in the Tories would seriously seek a ‘no deal’ outcome at the end of the transition period makes no sense at all. The Tories are, if nothing else, committed to free market economics and free trade and would clearly seek a good trading relationship with the EU. It’s kind of ironic to see those from the Left arguing for free trade when the anti-globalism activists who occasionally turn out to vandalise city centres are generally drawn from that wing of politics.

How do you think it possible to rule out a no deal outcome at the end of the transition period? How would that work? We will have left the EU and so I assume that you are arguing for the possibility of endless extensions to the transition period?

We do whatever it takes to leave with a sensible deal and no chance of No Deal.

[rolymiller]

I'm hoping the Letwin amendment is voted for because parliament can have more control over the type of brexit we have. Otherwise we will have a right wing Brexit pandering to the ERG or no deal brexit which would pander even more to the right wingers.

[a123]

I'm hoping the Letwin amendment is voted for because parliament can have more control over the type of brexit we have. Otherwise we will have a right wing Brexit pandering to the ERG or no deal brexit which would pander even more to the right wingers.

Absolute nonsense.

Unless we pass a Withdrawal Agreement and leave there will never be any negotiation about the future relationship and we will just be stuck in the Groundhog Day cycle of the last 3 and a bit years.

[rolymiller]

Absolute nonsense.

Better than going over a cliff edge into the abyss A123. Don't care how long it takes we need to get this right it will effect generations to come..

[ragingpup]

I'm hoping the Letwin amendment is voted for because parliament can have more control over the type of brexit we have. Otherwise we will have a right wing Brexit pandering to the ERG or no deal brexit which would pander even more to the right wingers.

Yep. The government won't even release the impact assessment on the new deal to its own MPs. Surely if that was positive they would release it to encourage to vote the deal through. Yet so called rational, educated grown ups are wanting such information to be withheld. Crazy, crazy days.

[ragingpup]

First of all the Nazi Party didn't have enough votes under the German system to have a majority in 1933 , they polled 43% despite a reign of terror and intimidation at the polls .

I don't like the term minimum Raging , it actually boils my blood , minimum equals benchmark in my opinion .

I understand the sentiment but I see it as crumbs and because some authority deems it acceptable that doesn't make it acceptable to me .

The term minimum is the clue , minimum becomes the new standard , not for me I'm afraid .

Blair's minimum wage was good from a sentiment point of view but it also bought acceptance from the lower paid .

Very clever .... except that every Amazon or Sports Direct knew that if the government standard was adhered to then it was acceptable , see where I'm going with this .

In essence your settling for less than you should be able to achieve because some government or European Union rubber stamps it .

I can't make people stand up for themselves , motivation comes from within .

I've stood up and lost , lost badly in 85 but I've also played a part in burying that cow at the Poll Tax demo in 1990 .

Something changed me that day , when you turn up make sure you can win and trust me it wasn't The Mets greatest day , bless em .

Moving on from better days ....and I'll sign off with this .

If the working class sit on their @sses and do nowt and the Labour Party makes it's self so unelectable it barely commands a vote in Barnsley then don't point the finger at the likes of me for whatever the current government want to do .

If 60 people in the ERG command the lives of all this country's working class and get their way then the working class deserve it .

Interesting post as ever. I don't think that you can say that the impact of imposing the minimum wage was simply sentimental. From a practical pov or raised the pay off millions of low paid workers by 10-15% with the pay rate around 1.50 more than it would have been for today's workers. I see where you coming from, but I'd prefer minimum standards and then get a government in to raise it further.

[animallittle3]

I see that went well in parliament today , another day and the can still getting kicked down the road .