O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[harpo88]

That was meant for GM btw

[John2]

I’m afraid that you and a significant proportion of Parliament are trying to fight a battle that has already been fought and lost. The electorate voted to leave. We now need to do that.

I think you're reading the situation wrong.

Parliament isn't fighting a battle that is already over, it is paralysed by constitutional crisis because there is no parliamentary consensus on what leave actually meant. An oversight of the referendum was that a parliamentary democracy is incapable of delivering on such an ambiguous outcome. The plebiscite as asked is incompatible with parliament.

The only way to break the impasse and establish the current will of the people and is to ask them again in full possession of facts about the reality of what a future relationship might look like with the EU, and then act on it, be it no deal, May's deal or remain. Then we can all move on confident that the outcome truly reflects the people.

[MillerBill]

The vote was taken by the biggest ever turn out.The majority of 52% voted to leave the EU,which means coming out of the Single Market and Customs Union.Parliament are trying to ignore the decision made by the people, by offering no support to back this.Project Fear told us if we voted to come out,a week later the Stock Market would crash and unemployment would go sky high.These are the same people who warned us that if we didn't join the Euro zone our economy would collapse.All these lies swayed Remainers to vote the way they did,obviously they didn't know what they were voting for.Unfortunately Parliament does not reflect the feelings of the people and are also very well supported by the TV media,especially the BBC who give a very biased outlook on Brexit.It really is pathetic how these people do not support this country.The EU is a sinking ship with boundless problems they have to resolve.NO MORE DELAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[harpo88]

Left and right, Leave and Remain, Israel and Palestine, all think the BBC is biased against them...

[ragingpup]

Setting aside my suspicion that you are once again conflating the withdrawal agreement and the future relationship, I have to ask what it is that you are smoking? It’s clearly seriously heavy stuff.

I see that you now want to move away from Labour’s SU (Freudian slip?) proposal and are now looking to ‘refocused discussion’ on the SM, FoM, ECJ, no doubt in the hope of doing some of your ‘focus trading'. Why? What are you trying to achieve and what compromises do you have in mind? May’s deal, risky though it is, ends Freedom of Movement immediately. It then involves a two year transition period in which to negotiate a future relationship with both parties committing to the creation of a comprehensive free trade agreement. Should that not be completed within two years or other arrangements put in place to achieve the same end, the backstop is triggered and we remain in a Customs Union (which is apparently what Labour wants, unless May proposes it, one must assume) to keep the Irish border open.

Why do you want to reopen FoM as part of a withdrawal deal? What are you hoping to achieve by it? If you want Freedom of Movement, a Customs Union arrangement and a Single Market arrangement then the best way to do that is to remain in the EU given that is essentially what that would amount to.

You will struggle to find any Tory who would compromise on Freedom of Movement, a Customs Union arrangement or a Single Market arrangement. Those who would have done so joined TIG a couple of weeks ago (save, perhaps, Dominic Grieve) and we know that Corbett won’t even tolerate being in the same room as them let alone do a bit of ‘focus trading’ with them. The Tories won’t compromise in that manner because to do so would fly in the face of the manifesto that they stood upon and because they have the good sense to know that it would be seen as a massive betrayal by a significant section of the electorate and would be electoral suicide.

Yes, the EU would love to have us in a Norway style deal in which we accept FoM accept EU rules without having a say in making them the jurisdiction of the ECJ and the requirement to contribute to the EU budget. That doesn’t make it a good idea and there is a zero chance of Parliament passing it.

I’m afraid that you and a significant proportion of Parliament are trying to fight a battle that has already been fought and lost. The electorate voted to leave. We now need to do that.

I’m disappointed that you don’t want to do a bit of ‘focus trading’ with gf and me with a view to reaching a compromise. Doesn’t that rather fly in the face of your belief that it is all that Parliament has to do to make everything ok?

I wouldn't get to obsessed with focus trading. It was an autocorrect on my phone.

My view is pretty much the same as the majority of mps across the house, there's nothing bizarre. Simply rip it up and start again to find an actual consensus. Because there isn't one. As a result of May's most recent dreadful leadership decision, entrenching mps even further away from supporting her deal, you and the hard right are going to lose everything. Sequence of events

1. May deal rejected again
2. May announces resignation and gets vote from mps on extension of no deal
3. Requests extension
4. Eu convey emergency meeting, grant on condition of new approach, either consensus, referendum or election.

And we start again. Could have been avoided with good leadership. Whether Corbyn could have done any better is amute point, he wasn't in charge. Only one person responsible. Your person.

[ragingpup]

The vote was taken by the biggest ever turn out.The majority of 52% voted to leave the EU,which means coming out of the Single Market and Customs Union.Parliament are trying to ignore the decision made by the people, by offering no support to back this.Project Fear told us if we voted to come out,a week later the Stock Market would crash and unemployment would go sky high.These are the same people who warned us that if we didn't join the Euro zone our economy would collapse.All these lies swayed Remainers to vote the way they did,obviously they didn't know what they were voting for.Unfortunately Parliament does not reflect the feelings of the people and are also very well supported by the TV media,especially the BBC who give a very biased outlook on Brexit.It really is pathetic how these people do not support this country.The EU is a sinking ship with boundless problems they have to resolve.NO MORE DELAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The whole problem is, you can leave the EU whilst remaining in the CU. That's an interpretation of leave. You have yours as do the 52%. But the other 48% who still live here and contribute to our society have our own interpretation. The vote was binary yes or no. It didn't say how. That's our problem.

[John2]

The majority of 52% voted to leave the EU,which means coming out of the Single Market and Customs Union.

No it doesn't. That's your personal opinion. There are many leave voters who disagree with you and would like to remain in single market or customs union. That's the problem, leave ACTUALLY just means leaving the EU, there are infinite possible ways this can be done.

Everyone has their own personal idea of what leave means. This is why we are facing unprecedented constitutional crisis because politicians have genuine disagreement and represent electorates with very different and conflicting views.

The problem isn't that parliament doesn't reflect the will of the people, it's that the will of the people doesn't fit neatly into any conceivable legislation.

[animallittle3]

EU 27 disintegrating over the extension apparently according to reports just coming in , first time a lack of unity amongst the 27 has appeared during this process .

Some hands shaking over the loss of £39bn I take it .

Interesting .

[Exiletyke]

I think you're reading the situation wrong.

Parliament isn't fighting a battle that is already over, it is paralysed by constitutional crisis because there is no parliamentary consensus on what leave actually meant. An oversight of the referendum was that a parliamentary democracy is incapable of delivering on such an ambiguous outcome. The plebiscite as asked is incompatible with parliament.

The only way to break the impasse and establish the current will of the people and is to ask them again in full possession of facts about the reality of what a future relationship might look like with the EU, and then act on it, be it no deal, May's deal or remain. Then we can all move on confident that the outcome truly reflects the people.

And just who do you suggest should supply & present to the electorate the facts so that the said electorate would be in full possession
The current debacle [brought about by demonstrably incompetent politicians/civil servants] is so confused after almost 3 years of incompetence leaves us with much more information but not much extra wisdom, so who will you rely on to provide us with a balanced unbiased view as to what's the best course of action Politicians, Civil servants The BBC perhaps,ex Prime Ministers...........Who?
Facts seem to be dependent on who's relating them
So your solution is no more than a dose of the same rhetoric that we have been served over the past 3 years although on the face of it seems fine & dandy

[Exiletyke]

Left and right, Leave and Remain, Israel and Palestine, all think the BBC is biased against them...

A recent survey has concluded that the BBC on it's news coverage/current affairs/ QT/political programs has been populated by over 65% remainers