Second Vote?

[1959_60]

Not quite as black and white as that Alto.

We decided to leave. Fair enough. But to leave completely, to leave everything is simply not practical. So it was always going to be deciding on the best way forward. May has her plan, no one wants it. We could have no deal, but no one want's that either (except a few Tory toffs who will make £££ out of it).

If you and Mrs Alto decided in 2016 that you wanted to leave your house and move, only to discover that the only option was a rat infested hovel in the poorer suburbs of Blackburn, or to simply pack your bags and rely on fate being kind to you...what who the Missus say?
"This is not what I had in mind, I want another say"
Would you tell her "We decided in 2016 that leave meant leave. We can't have another say because we have already decided to leave"
Good luck with that.

Surely the best idea was to plan out your destination BEFORE you decided to leave.

Same with Brexit, but no one did.

Therefore the people need a chance to tell us if this was what they voted for. If so, then crack on. If not, then surely it's democracy to be allowed to change your mind?

[Norder]

.

it's hilarious....europe (e.u) is going down as we speak - but then, there's that rosy picture, a bygone reflection that falsely maintains - that all is well in the land of baguettes and bratwurst.........etc.

[1959_60]

Sorry Norder, it is the UK public that have been sold a fantasy.

Farage, Boris, Ree-Mogg etc promised us a land of milk and honey. They were very good at it and many bought the fantasy.

Easiest trade deal to negotiate in history.
We will have a better deal with Europe than we have now...AND other countries will be falling over themselves to offer us brilliant deals.
They need us more than we need them.
We will be able to make our own decisions (Such as the current debacle in Parliament?).
Extra money to put into the NHS (£350M per week).
Plenty more stuff promised.

I think some people still believe the above. We were told it with such conviction, how could it not be true?

Believe me, if I thought that this outcome was likely then I would have voted for it.

But it was a La La Land fantasy peddled by smooth snake oil salesmen.

The reality is now Mays deal or no deal. And not many want either.

[Altobelli]

You cannot offer me selling my house as the same as leaving the EU 59.

I voted to leave for 3 main reasons, (1) so that we could rule ourselves (Which I did mention at the time that it would be better if we had someone with balls leading us but what was there at the time and is there now leaves a lot to be desired), (2) to stop free movement, as in cheap labour, benefits and NHS abuse (3) so we could trade with anyone in the World.

I understand that we have to pay something to the EU as we are terminating our agreement, but to bow to the EU like slaves because we have a Government who don't want to leave ? its disgusting.

The Government are there to help its Citizens of the United Kingdom, Cameron and Co are like May and Co, they did not even draw up contingency plans for if the vote was leave, that is not the publics fault.

The lies and deceit before the vote which may have influenced the outcome of the vote by both main parties shows just how shoddy our leaders are, was not the publics fault.

The inept appointment of Davis who showed everyone time after time he didn't have a clue about Brexit negotiations for the 18 months he was pretending to do negotiations is not the publics fault.

May's self serving decision to have a general election (because again she misread the peoples minds) while Brexit negotiations should have been the priority was not the publics fault.

May's constant chanting of "A no deal is better than a bad deal" was total Bollox at the time and has come to fruition now with her deal that is not going to be voted for, is not the publics fault.

The majority of May and her brexit negotiating team are remainers, which makes a mockery of the whole thing, which is not the publics fault.

Constant scare tactics by Carney (who should not comment and was completely wrong the first time) and the establishment is out of order, again not the publics fault.

There is a great big world out there 59, the EU (as corrupt as it is) is not the only fruit on the tree, I said at the time of the vote, a straight forward leave would be hard for a few years, we would get new deals, the EU would eventually come knocking on our door to recoup the great loss of their exports to the UK, which can and will hurt them greatly.

But we have been on the back foot since the vote because of some of the above.

If we get this May deal through, or one similar, we will always be on the back foot and treated worse than we are now.

I understand you used to trade through the EU 59, but I'd like to ask you, regardless of the UK staying or leaving, do you think the EU and the Euro will get stronger or weaker ?

[map]

"one thing you immediately notice is that Paris, like every other European City, is thronged with tourists, Americans, Japanese, Aussies, Chinese, Russian, Brazilians, etc, none of these people are EU citizens, but the EU is awash with them. If they can travel throughout Europe without let or hindrance, why on earth do you think we won't be able to ?

I think / know that the people that you refer to will be either travelling having been issued with "tourist visas" or "work / residince permits" as they are foreigners - non European Members (?).
It may seem irrelevant but in my case, I have during the previous 11 years, worked in China on both short and long term contracts, returning to England inbetween the contract durations.
When I returned to England earlier this year I was told that although my BRITISH passport is valid until 2025 I needed to prove my British Citizenship, send my passport to various offices to be verified.
I was, to say the least both confused and a lttle angry, "welcome HOME to ENGLAND"....needless to say but I will anyway, I am in the process of obtaining my work permit and Residence Permit and hope to return home to China at the earliest opportunity, at the end of 2018.

I

[Altobelli]

I wish I could call home somewhere other than the UK map.

[Supersub6]

I will bet, although I am not a betting man, that Germany will not suffer any hardship in any of this and that it will take the UK a long time to get things stabilised and moving forward.
We, as a nation, are getting what the public voted for and that is to leave the EU.
There was never any plan for leaving and the guy who gave us the referendum, as promised in the manifesto, said that he was unable to continue and negotiate something with which he did not agree and he resigned, however, he is still pilloried for giving the public the choice!

Once the result was known, all the parties should have lobbied for an all party commission to be set up to decide the best way forward, however, once again, party politics got in the way and we are in the mess that we are in.
Que sera sera! It's only a game!

[1959_60]

I feel your pain Alto.

But leaving without a deal will be really bad. We are a big nation but not big enough to handle a sudden seismic change like that without being diminished.
We have just 112 days to go before this may happen and we are nowhere near ready - in many ways.
Lot's of worrying news coming out about what will happen if we leave without a deal.
We will know for sure in 112 days time.

Yes, until I retired last year I used to trade worldwide - but around 75% in the EU. It was so simple to do trade and our partners on the continent simply could't understand our thinking in wanting to leave.
The EU is working brilliantly for trade across the continent - please don't listen to mis-information from the hard Brexiteers.
If we placed an order then we paid up and got our goods within one or two days. The same was true for our exports.
We also traded in the USA, Asia, Africa and Australia.
And it was a ballache. The amount of form filling etc was a pain. But if we made a purchase then we still had to pay up front but wait up to 10 weeks to get our goods. In the meantime we were vulnerable to exchange rate fluctuations that could turn a good deal into a bad one (and vice versa). returning faulty goods was a big issue.
But we DID deal with the wider world - why wouldn't we? So if we lost a chunk of EU business then it is not as easy as replacing it with trading with America, Australia or wherever.
We built up our customer/supplier base over many years - you need to build up strong trust - and this doesn't happen overnight.
Why put all this trade at risk just to satisfy the ideology of some people who don't understand how trade really works?
Several of our partners were very clear that if we left the EU then they would look for other partners.

The EU is a strong, established trading block and it will only get more powerful. On the Euro, well, it is safety in numbers. Since the referendum the pond has dropped around 20% in value - we have had to take that hit.
If a nation in the Euro zone got in trouble then the Euro wouldn't be hit as much as the pound has been.

I believe in building bridges not build walls. To work together in partnership, not work against each other in competition.

But that's just me...

[Altobelli]

We export £49.1 Billion to Germany, and import £75.1 Billion, maybe no hardship for them but it will smart a lot.

[1959_60]

Good luck Map.

I am aware of several people in your position - and there will be plenty more once we leave the EU.

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