O/T:- Is Brexit a dead duck?

[Disturbed]

[QUOTE=crazyfists;39079222]

How anyone could vote for something that makes the country and it's citizens worse off after it happens is beyond stupidity.


100% agree, but I think that Labour will win the next election and that would prove that we will be a nation of stupidity

[drillerpie]

Coupled with a nice European court opinion that we can legally unilaterally kick Article 50 into touch provided due process is followed. Due process I imagine being a Parliamentary vote?
EU watching the chaos and very cleverly given some legal advisor a nudge "Go on, give them a get out free card".

I don't think that's true. They have also just issued a ruling to uphold the UK position that Brits resident in the EU for over 15 years weren't able to vote in the referendum.

If they had wanted to overturn the result that would've been a much easier and more palatable way of doing it.

[Trickytreesreds]

Or it will be the lowest turnout in history as people will think "what's the point?".

This is what it wants.

[Trickytreesreds]

'Their lack of knowledge includes major topics very much in the public domain: the murky decision-making via trilogues, the noses in the trough of MEPs which make Douglas Hogg's duckhouse look great value-for-money, the corrupt and unaccountable lobbying of MEPs, the dodgy tax-dealing of EU-members, the damage done to the environment caused and/or facilitated by the CAP, CFP, investments by the European Investment Bank (the shadiest bunch ever) and things such as Nord Stream 2 which also manages to deliver enormous geopolitical power to Putin. And this is just the big stuff. Madness'.

Are you seriously suggesting that those who voted Leave did it because of these things?

No he's not.
In mirror with the "didn't know what you was voting for" jibe aimed at leavers.
People who voted remain, don't understand a fraction of the EU.
The younger ones in particular haven't a clue how the EU came about. Most couldn't even name the EU president.
they believe they can't travel abroad, see their foreign friends or ever work abroad.
It's bull **** but no one on remain tells them that.

Door swings both ways.

[magpie_mania]

No he's not.
In mirror with the "didn't know what you was voting for" jibe aimed at leavers.
People who voted remain, don't understand a fraction of the EU.
The younger ones in particular haven't a clue how the EU came about. Most couldn't even name the EU president.
they believe they can't travel abroad, see their foreign friends or ever work abroad.
It's bull **** but no one on remain tells them that.

Door swings both ways.

they believe they can't travel abroad, see their foreign friends or ever work abroad.

Total rubbish! (Unless of course if they really believe it that was Brexiters 'project fear' that made them think that - door swings both ways)

Strange how people who voted to remain don't understand the EU - but leavers obviously know all the details.

Are you still looking for the quote where we were told to do what we were told?

As for 'Most people I know who voted Leave just don't want a fully-federal Europe'., most I know voted leave because of immigration and 'we want to make our own laws'

[ancientpie]

My friend BFP has said from the beginning that Brexit would not happen and it looks as though he may be right. The majority against May's deal is anywhere between 250 and 400 so it's hard to see how that could change.
Her backers have said that the alternatives are NO DEAL or NO BREXIT. Can't see any living politician with the support to carry through the first so No Brexit is looking very possible.
Merry Christmas, chaps,

It was a "dead duck" from day one & unfortunately any pretense of this country being a Democracy died with it!! keep crowing & remember what the "loonie left" have unleashed when it comes to the next election!! The remain vote will be shared between 3 or 4 parties whereas the leave vote will unite behind a "Farage led?" right wing party & God help us all when that happens, the streets could well run red with blood!

[magpie_mania]

I have said many times that although I voted remain, I just want it done and dusted now.

However, that doesn't mean that I can't debate it and criticise it if I feel the need. It's not the decision that bothers me, more the attitude of the 'triumphant brexiters' who seem to feel that anyone who didn't vote that way must shut up and go away - calling anyone who comments a 'remoaner' while if remain had won claiming they would have accepted it, not made any further comments and most certainly would not have continued the debate. That's not what the King of Brexit, Farage said though! Is he still taking his MEP salary while not being there to vote?

The big mistake I think was not getting a cross party group to lead the negotiations. This wasn't a Labour / Tory vote but across all parties there were leavers.

[BigFatPie]

Firstly, apologies for the tone of my previous to you (bad day!)

I do find it odd just how many Remainers are so in the dark about the inner workings of the EU. It is claimed that Leavers had no idea of what they were voting for but without an understanding of such things, and no manifesto as to what the EU is planning to be in 5 years, 10 etc, then what are you voting for? Too many people seem to be throwing their lot in with the EU to hit the Tories - frying pa/fire. Anyone who thinks that growing inequality, austerity etc just affects the UK needs to read more.

In a nutshell: The EU has clear fiscal rules (Stability and Growth Pact, SGP) designed to stop nations going off the rails economically thereby threatening the (primarily) Euro and undercutting each other; all 28 countries are signed up to it. Notable limits are on government deficit (3% of GDP) and debt (60% of GDP). McDonnell's planned borrowing for re-nationalisation breaks the 3% figure - the UK cannot be punished as heavily as others (certain protocols in place due to us having a bank of last resort and the £), but if we are in the EU then the rules are the rules. France and Germany have routinely broken many of the SGP rules with impunity. Others, notably Greece and Italy have been punished. Junker famously explained the lack of action against France's excess debt 'because they are France'.

Of course we could just ignore the rules (if we remain then I suggest we stop taking every EU rule and reg at face value, and certainly stop gold-plating them, and pick and choose). McDonnell's argument is that his borrowing is short-term, cheap and that it will result in a positive return over time but he may find himself handing over his homework for marking pdq.

The list of things Remainers have no idea of but still voted Remain amazes me. They tell me that WTO rules would spell the end for the UK economy but then cannot give a single detail. Their lack of knowledge includes major topics very much in the public domain: the murky decision-making via trilogues, the noses in the trough of MEPs which make Douglas Hogg's duckhouse look great value-for-money, the corrupt and unaccountable lobbying of MEPs, the dodgy tax-dealing of EU-members, the damage done to the environment caused and/or facilitated by the CAP, CFP, investments by the European Investment Bank (the shadiest bunch ever) and things such as Nord Stream 2 which also manages to deliver enormous geopolitical power to Putin. And this is just the big stuff. Madness. The list of Fails in the EU is too long for me. Stay and reform? What meaningful reform have we ever seen?

One shining beacon of light I would acknowledge is the EU Ombudsman, Emily O'Reilly. She (along with many Green MEPs) has worked tirelessly to open the EU up to be accountable to the people on just about every subject people should hold dear. She routinely takes the leadership to task and asks the difficult questions but she is, sadly, ignored.

Old ground for me here and I fear for our future if we don't leave.

Blimey - just started typing, didn't realise it was that long. Oh, in answer to the OP, Yes I think it is. But then again, it wasn't any sort of Exit that I would recognise.

Thanks for the reply. You’ve come to the conclusion that it’s Remain voters who need to educate themselves and that France and Germany get away with things and I think that’s nonsense. Have Leave voters been educated in the benefits of membership, or have they been subjected to a daily diet for years of no bendy bananas and too many Polish plumbers?

My ideal scenario would be a Labour government within the EU, and if their programme comes up against EU agreements than I hope they’re happy to have that fight.

[i961pie]

I have said many times that although I voted remain, I just want it done and dusted now.

However, that doesn't mean that I can't debate it and criticise it if I feel the need. It's not the decision that bothers me, more the attitude of the 'triumphant brexiters' who seem to feel that anyone who didn't vote that way must shut up and go away - calling anyone who comments a 'remoaner' while if remain had won claiming they would have accepted it, not made any further comments and most certainly would not have continued the debate. That's not what the King of Brexit, Farage said though! Is he still taking his MEP salary while not being there to vote?

The big mistake I think was not getting a cross party group to lead the negotiations. This wasn't a Labour / Tory vote but across all parties there were leavers.

And the leave voters were told they were white uneducated thick racists who didn't know what they were voting for. The remainers weren't all little Innocents when it came to insults.

[HaylePie]

Thanks for the reply. You’ve come to the conclusion that it’s Remain voters who need to educate themselves and that France and Germany get away with things and I think that’s nonsense. Have Leave voters been educated in the benefits of membership, or have they been subjected to a daily diet for years of no bendy bananas and too many Polish plumbers?

My ideal scenario would be a Labour government within the EU, and if their programme comes up against EU agreements than I hope they’re happy to have that fight.

Wow you are feisty! But wrong re my conclusion. I made the point that I was surprised at the level of detailed knowledge of many Remainers when making such a long-term decision. I didn't say and don't believe that that knowledge was inferior to Leavers. I don't do fights, I research, vote accordingly and respect others' views. You, however, moved quickly to your standard portrayal of Leavers, as you have done repeatedly, recently with your 'chat' with driller earlier in the thread where you reduce any valid points made to 'its all about bendy bananas' and 'wot you got from the DM'; Leavers are all thickos. Sadly, as MMania says, it cuts both ways.

As for my 'nonsense' re Fr/Ger - for a man who hadn't read about the Stability and Growth Pact or followed its history, that's a big call. But, hey, I'm always happy to be proved wrong so any pointers to reference material are appreciated.

Clearly both sides needed to educate themselves. One of the failures of the Remain side was in not explaining the benefits of the EU, the approach of 'if you know whats good for you' backfired. Junker & co avoided getting involved so as not to muddy the waters and fuel Farage & co's argument. Junker has admitted he thought Cameron could do a half decent job - in hindsight the EU should have got more involved for Remain.

You might get your wish re Labour and, of course McDonnell can ignore the rules if he chooses (lets face it, he's looking to borrow for a long-term return so a rule covering each FY its a bit pants anyway), my point is that he won't get sanction to break the rules - if we do, everyone can and the EU won't progress with maverick nations - see Italy 2018!