O/T:- Is Brexit a dead duck?

[SmiffyPie]

Yup... pretty much agree with everything you’ve said. The whole thing is starting to look stage managed to appear that we have little choice but to remain. This is Ireland 2009 all over again.

Coupled with a nice European court opinion that we can legally unilaterally kick Article 50 into touch provided due process is followed. Due process I imagine being a Parliamentary vote?
EU watching the chaos and very cleverly given some legal advisor a nudge "Go on, give them a get out free card".

[i961pie]

I don’t know what you mean by “witch hunt” tbh. If enough voters don’t like what their MP has done about Brexit or anything else, they’ll be voted out.

By witch Hunt I mean the press that supported brexit naming them and urging the public to kick them out.
From my own personal point of view I hope that mad old bat Soubry gets kicked out.

[HaylePie]

What are the EUs restrictions on borrowing and what rules apply to the UK that don’t apply to France or Germany? As far as I can see, Corbyn can do what he likes with the gas and electric companies, particularly if he commits fully to measures to combat climate change.

Not trying to make a point, I don’t honestly know.

Firstly, apologies for the tone of my previous to you (bad day!)

I do find it odd just how many Remainers are so in the dark about the inner workings of the EU. It is claimed that Leavers had no idea of what they were voting for but without an understanding of such things, and no manifesto as to what the EU is planning to be in 5 years, 10 etc, then what are you voting for? Too many people seem to be throwing their lot in with the EU to hit the Tories - frying pa/fire. Anyone who thinks that growing inequality, austerity etc just affects the UK needs to read more.

In a nutshell: The EU has clear fiscal rules (Stability and Growth Pact, SGP) designed to stop nations going off the rails economically thereby threatening the (primarily) Euro and undercutting each other; all 28 countries are signed up to it. Notable limits are on government deficit (3% of GDP) and debt (60% of GDP). McDonnell's planned borrowing for re-nationalisation breaks the 3% figure - the UK cannot be punished as heavily as others (certain protocols in place due to us having a bank of last resort and the £), but if we are in the EU then the rules are the rules. France and Germany have routinely broken many of the SGP rules with impunity. Others, notably Greece and Italy have been punished. Junker famously explained the lack of action against France's excess debt 'because they are France'.

Of course we could just ignore the rules (if we remain then I suggest we stop taking every EU rule and reg at face value, and certainly stop gold-plating them, and pick and choose). McDonnell's argument is that his borrowing is short-term, cheap and that it will result in a positive return over time but he may find himself handing over his homework for marking pdq.

The list of things Remainers have no idea of but still voted Remain amazes me. They tell me that WTO rules would spell the end for the UK economy but then cannot give a single detail. Their lack of knowledge includes major topics very much in the public domain: the murky decision-making via trilogues, the noses in the trough of MEPs which make Douglas Hogg's duckhouse look great value-for-money, the corrupt and unaccountable lobbying of MEPs, the dodgy tax-dealing of EU-members, the damage done to the environment caused and/or facilitated by the CAP, CFP, investments by the European Investment Bank (the shadiest bunch ever) and things such as Nord Stream 2 which also manages to deliver enormous geopolitical power to Putin. And this is just the big stuff. Madness. The list of Fails in the EU is too long for me. Stay and reform? What meaningful reform have we ever seen?

One shining beacon of light I would acknowledge is the EU Ombudsman, Emily O'Reilly. She (along with many Green MEPs) has worked tirelessly to open the EU up to be accountable to the people on just about every subject people should hold dear. She routinely takes the leadership to task and asks the difficult questions but she is, sadly, ignored.

Old ground for me here and I fear for our future if we don't leave.

Blimey - just started typing, didn't realise it was that long. Oh, in answer to the OP, Yes I think it is. But then again, it wasn't any sort of Exit that I would recognise.

[HaylePie]

If it doesn't go through then I agree with the other poster no point in voting ever again.

My opinion is and always has been it won't go through and May has put forward something that she knows won't go through she is a remain voter after all and is scared to push for Brexit in case everything goes wrong.

In a nutshell it has been a complete waste of time/money that would have been better spent elsewhere.

But it has got people more energised in politics - in the whole of the EU - which can only be a good thing. The little people don't have the power of money, but they have the power of the vote which will hopefully wake up those paid to serve. The EU has 2 choices now:it either continues on its current track and becomes more disliked, or it steps back and starts to engage.

[HaylePie]

It will also be very interesting where the EU will be in 10 years time especially if Europes lurch to the right continues

Picture this: Merkel goes and a coalition is formed with AfD as the power-broker, Macron out and Le Pen or Melenchon in, Italy continuing its belligerence, the Visegrad 4 growing bolder against the EU and even little old right-wing Vox gaining traction in Spain. What then for the EU with Germany and France still the rule-makers. (Shudders)

Not a prediction, but a distinct possibility.

[magpie_mania]

Firstly, apologies for the tone of my previous to you (bad day!)

I do find it odd just how many Remainers are so in the dark about the inner workings of the EU. It is claimed that Leavers had no idea of what they were voting for but without an understanding of such things, and no manifesto as to what the EU is planning to be in 5 years, 10 etc, then what are you voting for? Too many people seem to be throwing their lot in with the EU to hit the Tories - frying pa/fire. Anyone who thinks that growing inequality, austerity etc just affects the UK needs to read more.

In a nutshell: The EU has clear fiscal rules (Stability and Growth Pact, SGP) designed to stop nations going off the rails economically thereby threatening the (primarily) Euro and undercutting each other; all 28 countries are signed up to it. Notable limits are on government deficit (3% of GDP) and debt (60% of GDP). McDonnell's planned borrowing for re-nationalisation breaks the 3% figure - the UK cannot be punished as heavily as others (certain protocols in place due to us having a bank of last resort and the £), but if we are in the EU then the rules are the rules. France and Germany have routinely broken many of the SGP rules with impunity. Others, notably Greece and Italy have been punished. Junker famously explained the lack of action against France's excess debt 'because they are France'.

Of course we could just ignore the rules (if we remain then I suggest we stop taking every EU rule and reg at face value, and certainly stop gold-plating them, and pick and choose). McDonnell's argument is that his borrowing is short-term, cheap and that it will result in a positive return over time but he may find himself handing over his homework for marking pdq.

The list of things Remainers have no idea of but still voted Remain amazes me. They tell me that WTO rules would spell the end for the UK economy but then cannot give a single detail. Their lack of knowledge includes major topics very much in the public domain: the murky decision-making via trilogues, the noses in the trough of MEPs which make Douglas Hogg's duckhouse look great value-for-money, the corrupt and unaccountable lobbying of MEPs, the dodgy tax-dealing of EU-members, the damage done to the environment caused and/or facilitated by the CAP, CFP, investments by the European Investment Bank (the shadiest bunch ever) and things such as Nord Stream 2 which also manages to deliver enormous geopolitical power to Putin. And this is just the big stuff. Madness. The list of Fails in the EU is too long for me. Stay and reform? What meaningful reform have we ever seen?

One shining beacon of light I would acknowledge is the EU Ombudsman, Emily O'Reilly. She (along with many Green MEPs) has worked tirelessly to open the EU up to be accountable to the people on just about every subject people should hold dear. She routinely takes the leadership to task and asks the difficult questions but she is, sadly, ignored.

Old ground for me here and I fear for our future if we don't leave.

Blimey - just started typing, didn't realise it was that long. Oh, in answer to the OP, Yes I think it is. But then again, it wasn't any sort of Exit that I would recognise.

'Their lack of knowledge includes major topics very much in the public domain: the murky decision-making via trilogues, the noses in the trough of MEPs which make Douglas Hogg's duckhouse look great value-for-money, the corrupt and unaccountable lobbying of MEPs, the dodgy tax-dealing of EU-members, the damage done to the environment caused and/or facilitated by the CAP, CFP, investments by the European Investment Bank (the shadiest bunch ever) and things such as Nord Stream 2 which also manages to deliver enormous geopolitical power to Putin. And this is just the big stuff. Madness'.

Are you seriously suggesting that those who voted Leave did it because of these things?

[legs77]

But it has got people more energised in politics - in the whole of the EU - which can only be a good thing. The little people don't have the power of money, but they have the power of the vote which will hopefully wake up those paid to serve. The EU has 2 choices now:it either continues on its current track and becomes more disliked, or it steps back and starts to engage.

I think you are correct it has got people talking about it but the majority have no idea myself included in what is going on.

The whole thing is a farce it is clear they thought the country would vote to remain and as that didn't happen they are looking at ways to make sure we don't leave.

In an ideal world the EU will engage as you say but they will make it feel like we are "lucky" to be with them and that they have given us a "second" chance, put it this way if we were Greece the door would have been closed along time ago they only want us for ££££££££££££.

[HaylePie]

'Their lack of knowledge includes major topics very much in the public domain: the murky decision-making via trilogues, the noses in the trough of MEPs which make Douglas Hogg's duckhouse look great value-for-money, the corrupt and unaccountable lobbying of MEPs, the dodgy tax-dealing of EU-members, the damage done to the environment caused and/or facilitated by the CAP, CFP, investments by the European Investment Bank (the shadiest bunch ever) and things such as Nord Stream 2 which also manages to deliver enormous geopolitical power to Putin. And this is just the big stuff. Madness'.

Are you seriously suggesting that those who voted Leave did it because of these things?

Not all, no. Obviously 17+ million people will have differing reasons. Most people I know who voted Leave just don't want a fully-federal Europe.

But I am suggesting that many who voted Remain don't understand what they are voting for in the same vein as they accuse Leavers.

[dam617]

But it has got people more energised in politics - in the whole of the EU - which can only be a good thing. The little people don't have the power of money, but they have the power of the vote which will hopefully wake up those paid to serve. The EU has 2 choices now:it either continues on its current track and becomes more disliked, or it steps back and starts to engage.

'The power of the vote'?








You're surely having a laugh?

[HaylePie]

I think you are correct it has got people talking about it but the majority have no idea myself included in what is going on.

The whole thing is a farce it is clear they thought the country would vote to remain and as that didn't happen they are looking at ways to make sure we don't leave.

In an ideal world the EU will engage as you say but they will make it feel like we are "lucky" to be with them and that they have given us a "second" chance, put it this way if we were Greece the door would have been closed along time ago they only want us for ££££££££££££.

Indeed. If Greece had voted to leave how much froth would there have been?