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Thread: O/T:- Is Brexit a dead duck?

  1. #221
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    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by i961pie View Post
    How many were elected on reversing a democratic vote?
    None.

    How many were elected after the referendum on the basis of coming out with some kind of deal like Labour's 'jobs first Brexit' or the Conservative 'red white and blue Brexit'?

  2. #222
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    Not a very original point admittedly, but apparently Tory MPs had a vote a couple of years ago, but now some have changed their mind so now they’re going to have another one.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatPie View Post
    Not a very original point admittedly, but apparently Tory MPs had a vote a couple of years ago, but now some have changed their mind so now they’re going to have another one.
    Ahah nicely done.

  4. #224
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by optipez View Post
    Driller, you're way behind the curve. The pros and cons of Brexit were for 2016 when by 6 to 1 those representative MPs devolved responsibility for our future to us, then overwhelmingly made the result law.
    On this subject they aren't elected to do what they think is for the best, they gave that privilege up 30 months ago.
    They have stood on clear manifestos and been clearly mandated by us , ( the majority) to get us out of the institutions of the EU.

    If you don't think the establishment is trying it's very best to wriggle out of their legal and moral obligation your powers of objective reason have been seriously impaired.
    They were not mandated to get a deal, they were mandated to get us out.
    Another wrong-footed intervention from one of my favourite peasant posters. Absorb the following:



    Claim
    The EU referendum was “advisory” only.

    Conclusion
    The referendum wasn’t legally binding, but there’s plenty of scope for argument about whether politicians should feel obliged to implement the result anyway.

    "The [EU] referendum was an advisory referendum”

    Dominic Grieve MP, 10 October 2016

    “This was not an advisory referendum”

    John Redwood MP, 7 November 2016

    Given that the meaning of the French Revolution is still contested, it’s no surprise that there are arguments over June’s EU referendum.

    The word “advisory” crops up a lot in the debate at the moment. Here we’ll look what people mean when they say that the referendum was, or wasn’t, advisory.

    Start with the law
    The referendum was not legally binding. There’s no one source that can prove this statement true (although here’s a respectable one). That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.

    In other countries, referendums are often legally binding—for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.

    A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, for example, was legally binding in this way.

    Otherwise, as the High Court put it on 3 November:

    “a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament”.

    So, purely as a matter of law, neither the government nor Parliament has to do anything about the referendum.

    Some people who oppose Brexit take the argument a step further. We see images like this one on social media, highlighting the non-binding nature of the vote:

    “Which bits of this [briefing] are MPs now acting as if they either did not read or did not understand?” asks the philosopher AC Grayling.

    The arguments aren’t just legal—there are political ones too
    This is where the argument slides from legal into political. Former diplomat Brian Barder says that:

    “members of parliament owe the electorate their own best judgement of the national interest—taking into account the referendum result—not their obedience to the opinions of a narrow majority in a referendum or otherwise”.

    The argument goes that, the referendum being “advisory” and Brexit being bad, MPs should refuse to follow the result. Some MPs agree.

    But some people who support leaving the EU say there’s plenty of evidence that the referendum was politically binding. They say that the referendum process sent clear instructions to MPs that they should support the decision made by a majority of voters—even if the formalities don’t require them to.

    They point to the fact that, during one of the debates on the referendum bill on 9 June 2015, the then Foreign Secretary said “decision about our membership should be taken by the British people, not by Whitehall bureaucrats, certainly not by Brussels Eurocrats; not even by Government Ministers or parliamentarians in this Chamber”.

    Similarly, the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result. This promise, too, does the rounds on social media.

    Leaflets are not law, and the High Court has since told the government that it can’t keep this promise without the approval of Parliament. But that doesn’t stop anyone from making the case that MPs delegated the Brexit decision to the voters, and have no right to unmake it now.

    A representative or a direct democracy?
    In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

    In a parliamentary democracy, as barrister Rupert Myers bluntly puts it, “the people are not sovereign”.

    That’s why Nigel Farage, for example, accepts that the referendum result was technically advisory only, but says that “I would now wish to see constitutional change to make referendums binding”.

  5. #225
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    6,027
    Quote Originally Posted by sidders View Post
    Another wrong-footed intervention from one of my favourite peasant posters. Absorb the following:



    Claim
    The EU referendum was “advisory” only.

    Conclusion
    The referendum wasn’t legally binding, but there’s plenty of scope for argument about whether politicians should feel obliged to implement the result anyway.

    "The [EU] referendum was an advisory referendum”

    Dominic Grieve MP, 10 October 2016

    “This was not an advisory referendum”

    John Redwood MP, 7 November 2016

    Given that the meaning of the French Revolution is still contested, it’s no surprise that there are arguments over June’s EU referendum.

    The word “advisory” crops up a lot in the debate at the moment. Here we’ll look what people mean when they say that the referendum was, or wasn’t, advisory.

    Start with the law
    The referendum was not legally binding. There’s no one source that can prove this statement true (although here’s a respectable one). That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.

    In other countries, referendums are often legally binding—for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.

    A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, for example, was legally binding in this way.

    Otherwise, as the High Court put it on 3 November:

    “a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament”.

    So, purely as a matter of law, neither the government nor Parliament has to do anything about the referendum.

    Some people who oppose Brexit take the argument a step further. We see images like this one on social media, highlighting the non-binding nature of the vote:

    “Which bits of this [briefing] are MPs now acting as if they either did not read or did not understand?” asks the philosopher AC Grayling.

    The arguments aren’t just legal—there are political ones too
    This is where the argument slides from legal into political. Former diplomat Brian Barder says that:

    “members of parliament owe the electorate their own best judgement of the national interest—taking into account the referendum result—not their obedience to the opinions of a narrow majority in a referendum or otherwise”.

    The argument goes that, the referendum being “advisory” and Brexit being bad, MPs should refuse to follow the result. Some MPs agree.

    But some people who support leaving the EU say there’s plenty of evidence that the referendum was politically binding. They say that the referendum process sent clear instructions to MPs that they should support the decision made by a majority of voters—even if the formalities don’t require them to.

    They point to the fact that, during one of the debates on the referendum bill on 9 June 2015, the then Foreign Secretary said “decision about our membership should be taken by the British people, not by Whitehall bureaucrats, certainly not by Brussels Eurocrats; not even by Government Ministers or parliamentarians in this Chamber”.

    Similarly, the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result. This promise, too, does the rounds on social media.

    Leaflets are not law, and the High Court has since told the government that it can’t keep this promise without the approval of Parliament. But that doesn’t stop anyone from making the case that MPs delegated the Brexit decision to the voters, and have no right to unmake it now.

    A representative or a direct democracy?
    In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

    In a parliamentary democracy, as barrister Rupert Myers bluntly puts it, “the people are not sovereign”.

    That’s why Nigel Farage, for example, accepts that the referendum result was technically advisory only, but says that “I would now wish to see constitutional change to make referendums binding”.
    I think when he was talking about the Withdrawal Act passed by parliament after the referendum, but anyway his assertion that 'they just have to get us out, not get us a deal' is just wrong based on common sense and also the fact that if I'm not mistaken the High Court has ruled that parliament has to debate and vote on the terms of Brexit.

  6. #226
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    20,609
    Quote Originally Posted by sidders View Post
    Another wrong-footed intervention from one of my favourite peasant posters. Absorb the following:



    Claim
    The EU referendum was “advisory” only.

    Conclusion
    The referendum wasn’t legally binding, but there’s plenty of scope for argument about whether politicians should feel obliged to implement the result anyway.

    "The [EU] referendum was an advisory referendum”

    Dominic Grieve MP, 10 October 2016

    “This was not an advisory referendum”

    John Redwood MP, 7 November 2016

    Given that the meaning of the French Revolution is still contested, it’s no surprise that there are arguments over June’s EU referendum.

    The word “advisory” crops up a lot in the debate at the moment. Here we’ll look what people mean when they say that the referendum was, or wasn’t, advisory.

    Start with the law
    The referendum was not legally binding. There’s no one source that can prove this statement true (although here’s a respectable one). That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.

    In other countries, referendums are often legally binding—for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.

    A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, for example, was legally binding in this way.

    Otherwise, as the High Court put it on 3 November:

    “a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament”.

    So, purely as a matter of law, neither the government nor Parliament has to do anything about the referendum.

    Some people who oppose Brexit take the argument a step further. We see images like this one on social media, highlighting the non-binding nature of the vote:

    “Which bits of this [briefing] are MPs now acting as if they either did not read or did not understand?” asks the philosopher AC Grayling.

    The arguments aren’t just legal—there are political ones too
    This is where the argument slides from legal into political. Former diplomat Brian Barder says that:

    “members of parliament owe the electorate their own best judgement of the national interest—taking into account the referendum result—not their obedience to the opinions of a narrow majority in a referendum or otherwise”.

    The argument goes that, the referendum being “advisory” and Brexit being bad, MPs should refuse to follow the result. Some MPs agree.

    But some people who support leaving the EU say there’s plenty of evidence that the referendum was politically binding. They say that the referendum process sent clear instructions to MPs that they should support the decision made by a majority of voters—even if the formalities don’t require them to.

    They point to the fact that, during one of the debates on the referendum bill on 9 June 2015, the then Foreign Secretary said “decision about our membership should be taken by the British people, not by Whitehall bureaucrats, certainly not by Brussels Eurocrats; not even by Government Ministers or parliamentarians in this Chamber”.

    Similarly, the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result. This promise, too, does the rounds on social media.

    Leaflets are not law, and the High Court has since told the government that it can’t keep this promise without the approval of Parliament. But that doesn’t stop anyone from making the case that MPs delegated the Brexit decision to the voters, and have no right to unmake it now.

    A representative or a direct democracy?
    In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

    In a parliamentary democracy, as barrister Rupert Myers bluntly puts it, “the people are not sovereign”.

    That’s why Nigel Farage, for example, accepts that the referendum result was technically advisory only, but says that “I would now wish to see constitutional change to make referendums binding”.
    Get stocked up on beans and Worthers. It's coming.


  7. #227
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    1,907
    Quote Originally Posted by sidders View Post
    Another wrong-footed intervention from one of my favourite peasant posters. Absorb the following:



    Claim
    The EU referendum was “advisory” only.

    Conclusion
    The referendum wasn’t legally binding, but there’s plenty of scope for argument about whether politicians should feel obliged to implement the result anyway.

    "The [EU] referendum was an advisory referendum”

    Dominic Grieve MP, 10 October 2016

    “This was not an advisory referendum”

    John Redwood MP, 7 November 2016

    Given that the meaning of the French Revolution is still contested, it’s no surprise that there are arguments over June’s EU referendum.

    The word “advisory” crops up a lot in the debate at the moment. Here we’ll look what people mean when they say that the referendum was, or wasn’t, advisory.

    Start with the law
    The referendum was not legally binding. There’s no one source that can prove this statement true (although here’s a respectable one). That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.

    In other countries, referendums are often legally binding—for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.

    A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, for example, was legally binding in this way.

    Otherwise, as the High Court put it on 3 November:

    “a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament”.

    So, purely as a matter of law, neither the government nor Parliament has to do anything about the referendum.

    Some people who oppose Brexit take the argument a step further. We see images like this one on social media, highlighting the non-binding nature of the vote:

    “Which bits of this [briefing] are MPs now acting as if they either did not read or did not understand?” asks the philosopher AC Grayling.

    The arguments aren’t just legal—there are political ones too
    This is where the argument slides from legal into political. Former diplomat Brian Barder says that:

    “members of parliament owe the electorate their own best judgement of the national interest—taking into account the referendum result—not their obedience to the opinions of a narrow majority in a referendum or otherwise”.

    The argument goes that, the referendum being “advisory” and Brexit being bad, MPs should refuse to follow the result. Some MPs agree.

    But some people who support leaving the EU say there’s plenty of evidence that the referendum was politically binding. They say that the referendum process sent clear instructions to MPs that they should support the decision made by a majority of voters—even if the formalities don’t require them to.

    They point to the fact that, during one of the debates on the referendum bill on 9 June 2015, the then Foreign Secretary said “decision about our membership should be taken by the British people, not by Whitehall bureaucrats, certainly not by Brussels Eurocrats; not even by Government Ministers or parliamentarians in this Chamber”.

    Similarly, the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result. This promise, too, does the rounds on social media.

    Leaflets are not law, and the High Court has since told the government that it can’t keep this promise without the approval of Parliament. But that doesn’t stop anyone from making the case that MPs delegated the Brexit decision to the voters, and have no right to unmake it now.

    A representative or a direct democracy?
    In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

    In a parliamentary democracy, as barrister Rupert Myers bluntly puts it, “the people are not sovereign”.

    That’s why Nigel Farage, for example, accepts that the referendum result was technically advisory only, but says that “I would now wish to see constitutional change to make referendums binding”.
    ^^^^^^ Sid the voice of the status quo

  8. #228
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    6,265
    Just watching pmq's, they just argue going back and forwards back and forwards like we've all been doing on here about our for the last three years. It's all a right load of *******s and if you think any of these mp's I'm watching really give a **** about the man on the street then you're deluded. It's all point scoring and willy waving. YAWN.

  9. #229
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,496
    Class start to your reply Sidders.
    As a good socialist it must feel good to call others peasants you utter hypocrite.
    That that is the first line of your reply says everything. Play the man not the ball.

  10. #230
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    9,115
    Quote Originally Posted by drillerpie View Post
    Ahah nicely done.
    Can’t forget neither that people voted in 2015 thinking it would be for 5 years. There was another election 2 years later.

    It seems that the only vote which shouldn’t be overturned is that stupid, criminally influenced one in 2016.

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