Theresa in a mess

[sinkov]

Just a gentle reminder. The Labour Party did not cause this mess. The Tories are in power, but for how much longer, I care not to guess!

I agree that Labour didn't cause this mess BT, but they've certainly contributed towards it, in many cases enthusiastically. I'm a bit disappointed in their attitude towards Brexit, they claim it's their job to oppose the government, but leaving the EU is not government policy, May and the Tories are Remainers, by opposing Brexit Labour are actually opposing the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave, not the government, and helping the Tories to keep us in the EU.

[Supersub6]

I agree that Labour didn't cause this mess BT, but they've certainly contributed towards it, in many cases enthusiastically. I'm a bit disappointed in their attitude towards Brexit, they claim it's their job to oppose the government, but leaving the EU is not government policy, May and the Tories are Remainers, by opposing Brexit Labour are actually opposing the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave, not the government, and helping the Tories to keep us in the EU.

Very true, sinkov. All Labour have done is oppose everything but have not even come forward with any alternatives. Pressed for an answer on any of this, all politicians I have seen have, in their usual way, skirted all around the question asked and answered absolutely nothing.

[1959_60]

Within a year of the EU referendum 59, the Lib Dems were standing in a General Election on a platform to overturn the result of the referendum before it could be implemented. If you don't think that is playing politics with the issue, then I politely suggest you have a rather flimsy grasp of what politics is all about.

Evening!

Just got back from the Lakes where we climbed the surprisingly difficult Green Crag. Excellent grub and beer at the Woolpack in Boot afterwards. Another good day.

Sinkov, nothing "playing politics" about it at all.

The Lib Dems are quite open in believing that we will not get a better deal than the one we currently have.
So it was in the manifesto. No room for confusion there. Vote Lib Dem and the people would make the decision on the final deal.

Alas, not many people did, but the party is steadily picking up support.

[sinkov]

Evening!

Just got back from the Lakes where we climbed the surprisingly difficult Green Crag. Excellent grub and beer at the Woolpack in Boot afterwards. Another good day.

Sinkov, nothing "playing politics" about it at all.

The Lib Dems are quite open in believing that we will not get a better deal than the one we currently have.
So it was in the manifesto. No room for confusion there. Vote Lib Dem and the people would make the decision on the final deal.

Alas, not many people did, but the party is steadily picking up support.

Evening 59, just over 2.1 million people voted for the LibDem manifesto last year, with it's route back into the EU. 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU in the referendum. Do you ever get the feeling you're on the wrong side of history ?

The Woolpack in Boot, it's a few years since I was last in there. Green Crag rings a bell but I can't place it exactly, I'll have to look it up later.

[1959_60]

I think that is one of the fair criticisms of our politics Sinkov - parties don't put together their manifestos with conviction, they try to put populist proposals forwards in a desperate scramble for votes and power.

That can't be aimed at the Lib Dems these days. The proposal for a Peoples Vote was very unpopular at the time (now it has a majority supporting it).
We think cannabis should be legalised (I'll argue the toss over this if you like)
Let's face it, if someone was just after political power they would join the Tories or Labour with their safe seats and massive financial backing from big business and the unions.. But there ARE principled people out there who believe that there is another way.
As you can imagine, it is very frustrating most of the time when our ideas are hardly ever considered, but give us some credit for continuing to bang our drum.

Green Crag is in the South Lakes book. It is situated between Eskdale and the Duddon Valley.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Which bit of the result of a democratic vote to Leave the EU does Vince Cable not understand?

facebook.com/libdems/videos/375992746563561/

[1959_60]

Around 80% of Labour members also support a peoples vote.

Perhaps you can ask them the same question?

The Lib Dems have always been consistent on the second referendum thing.

[sinkov]

I think that is one of the fair criticisms of our politics Sinkov - parties don't put together their manifestos with conviction, they try to put populist proposals forwards in a desperate scramble for votes and power.

That can't be aimed at the Lib Dems these days. The proposal for a Peoples Vote was very unpopular at the time (now it has a majority supporting it).
We think cannabis should be legalised (I'll argue the toss over this if you like)
Let's face it, if someone was just after political power they would join the Tories or Labour with their safe seats and massive financial backing from big business and the unions.. But there ARE principled people out there who believe that there is another way.
As you can imagine, it is very frustrating most of the time when our ideas are hardly ever considered, but give us some credit for continuing to bang our drum.

Green Crag is in the South Lakes book. It is situated between Eskdale and the Duddon Valley.

Yes, got Green Crag now 59, went up there sometime in the late 70s and afterwards went to Workington to watch the Comets take on Berwick Bandits at Speedway, the Comets won as I recall.

I agree that the LibDems have at least been open and honest in their opposition to leaving the EU, but 'principled' ? Attempting to overturn the democratic decision of 17.4 million people is the very opposite I would say. The principled route to take would be to accept the decision, then when we're out, stand on a platform of another referendum, or if you want an application to rejoin, at the next general election.

This is what I posted on post 7 on why I prefer 'no deal'.

"Every other option is just kicking the can down the road. Every other option will just condemn us to years more argument, dispute, and uncertainty."

This what Vince said to Adam Boulton on SkyNews this morning on May's deal.

"It doesn't solve the problem, for the next two years we're going to be negotiating with the EU. All the arguments that are swilling around, they're going to be going on for the next two years, it's endlessly kicking the can down the road, we believe we've got to draw a line under it."

So me and Vince are in agreement, this needs sorting now. Sadly Vince then got lost in typical LibDem woolly thinking, his solution was another referendum, with the option of May's deal or Remain. If the vote is for May's deal then, as Vince has already stated this doesn't solve the problem, and if the vote is to Remain, then you have the problem of 17.4 million Leave voters on your back and our system of government in a constitutional crisis, which will resonate for years. This is not a solution, those leave voters will not go away, it's kicking the can down the road par excellence.

There is only one way to end the can kicking, and that is to leave the EU, and it seems now that the only way we can do that is by 'no deal'. It's not the optimum solution, it's not the best way, it will cause problems, but it is the only way we can get this behind us as a country and move on. Every other way is fraught with even more problems and difficulties, as I suspect we are about to find out.

[1959_60]

It's certainly going to be an interesting few days Sinkov.

As we can see, there is simply no consensus in Parliament to do anything at all. And can you see this changing?

There seems to be about six possibilities each one with a group of MP's support, but none of them would win a majority in Parliament.

They are not capable of moving on from the en passe - so I think the only thing to do is to ask the public to make the decision.

Otherwise that can will end up in small pieces.

[Supersub6]

Interesting that, because those (MPs) who should be more informed about things happening close to the debate but are unable to make a decision, you want to give another vote to the people, who definitely are less well informed about the whole thing, so that they can decide what should be done.

Meanwhile time marches on -----73 days to go.