EFL Launch spygate investigation

[george_kaplan]

Oh c’mon...personal attacks...yes. So far in response to what Bielsa admits he’s done you lot have dragged up FL’s previous relationships and his alleged bad behaviour from over seven**** years ago.

Now you bring up all the aspects that are endemic in modern football as another distraction tactic as if they have any relevance whatsoever. Yes the game would be better without players feigning injury, ‘stealing yards’, ‘shirt pulling’ and all the other various forms of cheating.

But what the hell has that got to do with Bielsa sending his staff out to spy on other clubs training methods?

All they have in common is that they are all forms of cheating and when players get caught shirt pulling or diving etc, forgive me if I’m wrong, but...don’t they get punished and penalised?

Any other club you wouldn't be having these threads, you know it and so do I.
If they don't get caught they don't get punished no. MB believes he did nothing wrong and he didn't. It happens like stealing yards and time wasting etc. Your golden boy and England darling versus a foreign coach well we know where the media will go with this one.
Talking of time wasting. Nothing will come of this and quite rightly too. It's a farce, but please keep plugging away, I'm surprised Pete Taylor and his side kick hasn't been dragged up.....Stetson ya here?

[LeedsFTW]

But what the hell has that got to do with Bielsa sending his staff out to spy on other clubs training methods?

All they have in common is that they are all forms of cheating and when players get caught shirt pulling or diving etc, forgive me if I’m wrong, but...don’t they get punished and penalised?

Agreed 2 wrongs don't make a right.

However, the shirt pulling, diving etc do have one thing in common, they are noted in the rule book and have an agreed set criteria for the punishment if those rules are broken.

Observing, spying however we want to term this from a public place, does not. IMO that a huge difference.

The general consensus is that watching other teams practicing (more so their final practice) is unfair/Cheating. Whether I agree with it or not, technically its not cheating or gaining an unfair advantage as there is no written rule against it and it is a tactic/source of information that could be used be all clubs, if not already being used.

This is why I feel that the league would be better off looking at themselves and the rule book to improve it, rather than trying to find a sketchy way to punish Leeds for using the current rules to their advantage.

[MadAmster]

Agreed 2 wrongs don't make a right.

However, the shirt pulling, diving etc do have one thing in common, they are noted in the rule book and have an agreed set criteria for the punishment if those rules are broken.

Observing, spying however we want to term this from a public place, does not. IMO that a huge difference.

The general consensus is that watching other teams practicing (more so their final practice) is unfair/Cheating. Whether I agree with it or not, technically its not cheating or gaining an unfair advantage as there is no written rule against it and it is a tactic/source of information that could be used be all clubs, if not already being used.

This is why I feel that the league would be better off looking at themselves and the rule book to improve it, rather than trying to find a sketchy way to punish Leeds for using the current rules to their advantage.

With you on the point that this behavious is not specifically in the rule book. That does not automatically make it right, justifiable or morally acceptable. That is the reason they have the "disrepute" charge in the book, to cover eventualities they haven's as yet thought of and/or encountered.

As I said in another thread on this, I don't think Leeds should get hammered over this but some sanction is required. Failure to sanction would confirm that Greed Is Good and that the game is no longer a sport but a very cynical business. My affinity with the game would be no more than watching my 2 local amateur teams and reffing in the lower Leagues once or twice a month. Football is turning me off and I never thought I would ever even think that, let alone say/write it out in public.

[ramAnag]

Agreed 2 wrongs don't make a right.

However, the shirt pulling, diving etc do have one thing in common, they are noted in the rule book and have an agreed set criteria for the punishment if those rules are broken.

Observing, spying however we want to term this from a public place, does not. IMO that a huge difference.

The general consensus is that watching other teams practicing (more so their final practice) is unfair/Cheating. Whether I agree with it or not, technically its not cheating or gaining an unfair advantage as there is no written rule against it and it is a tactic/source of information that could be used be all clubs, if not already being used.

This is why I feel that the league would be better off looking at themselves and the rule book to improve it, rather than trying to find a sketchy way to punish Leeds for using the current rules to their advantage.

Like ‘Amster I agree you make a fair point, LeedsFTW...the only ‘grey area’ is whether Bielsa’s activities are actually against the rules and that is what separates his activities from the more obvious forms of cheating that have been mentioned.
Truth be told they probably aren’t, although I suspect they very soon will be.
Rivalry with Leeds seems to have ‘haunted’ me throughout my life. I grew up on the ‘right’ - i.e. the west - side of the Pennines before moving to Derby and Derbyshire. Despite that I don’t actually ‘hate’ Leeds and like most on here I absolutely accept that you have a better side than us this season.
You also, imo, have a very, very good manager who knows a lot more, as you’d expect, than our ‘rookie’. The question I asked in post #87 remains central however. Obviously many influential Championship owners/managers now feel the same and that, I suspect, may present you with a problem.

[LeedsFTW]

Obviously many influential Championship owners/managers now feel the same and that, I suspect, may present you with a problem.

Hopefully this letter is not a concern, depending on the contents i.e. "EFL we don't like the strategy Leeds have been using, put an end to it asap". To me this would be fair and allows the EFL to investigate without BIAS.

If its a letter saying "Leeds must be deducted points as they spied on us if not you are going to be sorry" type thing, then for me this would not be cool as the investigation should be allowed to be carried out without intimidation.

( I suspect Derby & Lampard have rounded up the troops on this one , which should be used positively to get it all out in the open and dealt with properly).

Also regarding disrepute, I mentioned on the LEEDS board that if Lampard went to the press first about the Spying and not the league, continues to talk through the press as he has been, he will have to be mindful that he himself does not end up on a disrepute charge.

Quite easily on the day of the match between the our 2 sides, both sets of fans could have been wound up enough for some idiots to use it as an excuse to do something unsavory - thankfully nothing happened.

For me the fairest outcome would be a touchline ban for Biesla and a suspended pts deduction ( not sure how many) which will come into force if Biesla and crew are caught "observing/spying" without permission.

In the meantime, I would like to thank you for being civil , for the replies and discussion. I hope you enjoy the rest of the season, but I still want Leeds to finish with promotion, but I will settle for them being higher in the table than your lot

Good luck.

[alfinyalcabo]

Great thread,nice to see all you sheep sh@ggers getting on together .. Where's OTR ? On holiday ?

[mistaram]

Hopefully this letter is not a concern, depending on the contents i.e. "EFL we don't like the strategy Leeds have been using, put an end to it asap". To me this would be fair and allows the EFL to investigate without BIAS.

If its a letter saying "Leeds must be deducted points as they spied on us if not you are going to be sorry" type thing, then for me this would not be cool as the investigation should be allowed to be carried out without intimidation.

( I suspect Derby & Lampard have rounded up the troops on this one , which should be used positively to get it all out in the open and dealt with properly).

Also regarding disrepute, I mentioned on the LEEDS board that if Lampard went to the press first about the Spying and not the league, continues to talk through the press as he has been, he will have to be mindful that he himself does not end up on a disrepute charge.

Quite easily on the day of the match between the our 2 sides, both sets of fans could have been wound up enough for some idiots to use it as an excuse to do something unsavory - thankfully nothing happened.

For me the fairest outcome would be a touchline ban for Biesla and a suspended pts deduction ( not sure how many) which will come into force if Biesla and crew are caught "observing/spying" without permission.

In the meantime, I would like to thank you for being civil , for the replies and discussion. I hope you enjoy the rest of the season, but I still want Leeds to finish with promotion, but I will settle for them being higher in the table than your lot

Good luck.

You do assume a lot You have not a clue who has informed the FA or what has been stated Your post would be a lot more relevant if you just admitted he crossed the line What sort of sane person would send a member of staff to a Pre season friendly between Norwich v Gillingham with a video recorder ffs Just grow some balls and admit he was wrong instead of hiding behind its not illegal Its not illegal to shag somebody else's wife but you don't do it No I'm not definitely not a Leeds hater i don't want or expect you lose any points That only hurts the innocent fans and players At least you owners have the balls to say it's wrong would be nice if some fans did the same then maybe we could all move on You have a great team just a bent manager imo

[LeedsFTW]

You do assume a lot You have not a clue who has informed the FA or what has been stated Your post would be a lot more relevant if you just admitted he crossed the line What sort of sane person would send a member of staff to a Pre season friendly between Norwich v Gillingham with a video recorder ffs Just grow some balls and admit he was wrong instead of hiding behind its not illegal Its not illegal to shag somebody else's wife but you don't do it No I'm not definitely not a Leeds hater i don't want or expect you lose any points That only hurts the innocent fans and players At least you owners have the balls to say it's wrong would be nice if some fans did the same then maybe we could all move on You have a great team just a bent manager imo

mistaram, for your benefit, I have already posted this

"I really don't like the fact that we sent someone to observe your training session, especially if there was no merit to it. It not how I want my club to behave and I wouldn't be overly happy about other teams treating us the same way." i.e went to far.

The point I have been making is that there is a loophole in the governance of the game, Leeds have been caught exploiting it and now its need to be closed.

I accept I have made assumptions, though they are not entirely without foundation. If Lampard had not made so many statements about its up to the league and how other clubs respond, then I would not be thinking this way. In equal measure it could be that idiot from Bristol, but whatever, if they are really going to make a massive song and dance about this, then my honest view is that there is more to these objections than just Leeds spied on us asking for point to be deducted. Would you not agree?

For your example about adultery, it did actually used to be a criminal offence and there are laws and regulations about how adultery is handled in the legal system ... but I digress.

[StensonRam]

If what Bielsa has done is not against any rules why did he apologise and the club owner formally apologise face to face with Mel Morris? However a few days later Biesla does his press conference thing and 1/ he purposely makes information regarding Derby formation/tactics etc public and 2/ admits to spying on every club in the championship so far

So much for the apology then, it's like saying sorry after being caught shagging your Mrs but then a few days later telling everybody in the pub what she was like

[LeedsFTW]

If what Bielsa has done is not against any rules why did he apologise and the club owner formally apologise face to face with Mel Morris? However a few days later Biesla does his press conference thing and 1/ he purposely makes information regarding Derby formation/tactics etc public and 2/ admits to spying on every club in the championship so far

So much for the apology then, it's like saying sorry after being caught shagging your Mrs but then a few days later telling everybody in the pub what she was like

Personally, I think spying, observing other teams without an invite should not be allowed. - just to remind everyone

My understanding is that Biesla apologized because his actions had upset your club but he never said he was wrong or hasn't said it yet.

As for the press conference, I put this in one of my other posts.

"I understand the frustration about Bielsa revealing his information and I am not sure if he meant to undermine Derby specifically, I took it as more of an exercise to demonstrate how much information can be compiled on any team, using sources that are freely available in the public domain with a lot of graft. Derby being the hot topic meant they were the case study of choice".

So I would argue that information was already public and available and he admitted on spying (observing) every club so far as his way of saying, I have done nothing wrong, there is nothing in the rules to say I have done anything wrong and I treat all opponents the same, why is it such a big deal when the information is so easily obtainable? Also I think it was to stop the media from making up/publishing more on the topic.