EFL Launch spygate investigation

[mistaram]

Fair enough mista. If you are a young un, city was down in 3 not long back in football years, it's life mate. We've had years of Schitt believe every LEEDS fan will tell you.

Lighten up this has become a farce, you will understand it one day. The serious Stetson dude needs to ease up on his hate for us......it's unhealthy, if this is your biggest concern at the moment then I pity you, I actually feel sorry for you, imagine that feeling sorry for derby fans!!!

Stetson in you serious life please could you show me any, ANY article where Newcastle fans are behaving like you.

Yes Goerge I will try and lighten up a bit Its not our biggest concern at the moment that' FFP but it's obviously your biggest concern or you wouldn't be in another club's site would you

[george_kaplan]

Yes Goerge I will try and lighten up a bit Its not our biggest concern at the moment that' FFP but it's obviously your biggest concern or you wouldn't be in another club's site would you

.........Touche'

Most other places, it's gotten lighthearted as most see it as folly. One or two very bitter folk on here see it different, it's not the spying saga it's there dislike for my club, no qualms about that, their main agenda is to harm LUFC. The spying stuff, just a excuse. Lots of fans do not like LUFC that's why this pantamine has got some mileage.
Anyway I will leave on a nice note and say thanks for the banter.....

[LeedsFTW]

But for that to happen there has to be a precedent set, a slap on the wrists or a 50k fine is not going to put others off, if the FA/EFL believe it really did contravene rule 3.4 section 2 or what ever it is then they have to come down hard and set the precedent, fining Leeds a measly sum is pointless when they've just signed a 70k a week keeper, hit em where it'll hurt the most and thats a total points deduction after all they've gain all those points through cheating

As you posted on our site a couple of days back,

Paragraph 3.4 of Section 2 – Membership states: “In all matters and transactions relating to The League each Club shall behave towards each other Club and The League with the utmost good faith.”

I think it will be very difficult for the FA/EFL to justify a severe punishment against Leeds, on the basis it can be easily argued that Biesla has been working within the laws of the game, not done anything illegal or deceitful, so therefore acting in the utmost goodfaith.

Please don't misunderstand me, I really don't like the fact that we sent someone to observe your training session, especially if there was no merit to it. It not how I want my club to behave and I wouldn't be overly happy about other teams treating us the same way.

However I do know how vindictive the EFL/FA can be, especially to clubs that are opinionated ( for want of a better term).

For me, in this instance I feel that the FA/EFL are attempting to stretch the laws/rules of the game in order to try to justify a punishment on Leeds, because at the end of the day, Biesla has shown them up by how poor the rulebook is and that its governance is even worse.

Yes I think Biesla should get a punishment of some sort, even the club. I have stated before it should be a fine/touchline ban or made to play a few games behind closed doors.

I don't think we should be used to set a precedent. I feel it would be more logical to review the laws of the game and use Leeds as the excuse to tighten things up in that respect.

p.s. the reason I am posting here is because I wanted to understand for myself about how Derby fans felt about the situation and if you were more upset because it is Leeds and not another club.

Take it easy on me folks, I am not here to stir the pot just to have a good old fashioned honest, discussion/argument. (without causing offence I hope).

[MadAmster]

First of all LFTW, let me say, as you may have read in previous posts of mine in this thread, I am no great fan of your club. Having said that, I also put in a recent post in this thread that something should happen.

I'm not sure, apart from disrepute, what the charge could be but the press is saying there some charter or similar signed by all clubs and they are saying your club has contravened parts of that.

Observe? Lurking in the hedge with a pair of bolt cutters isn't my view of observing.

As I also said earlier, fines for club and manager and maybe a touchline ban and then put this kind of spying in the Laws/Rules as not acceptable and warn all clubs that the next club to be found doing it will get a 20 point deduction and direct relegation for a 2nd offence.

Point deductions this occasion is a step too far as it is a grey area.

Bielsa hasn't helped himself of the club IMO. The club apologised. Bielsa apologised and went on to say he has done it with all opponents this season. He then compounded it by putting on an expose of all Derby's tactics and signals and formations etc etc in the guise of a press conference. This has made our chances of success slimmer this season. Hence the call for a fine and a ban.

Games behind closed doors? That would be punishing the fans for Bielsa'a over zealous actions. Much as I have no love for your fans, several closed doors games would punish them when they haven't done anything wrong in this situation.

[LeedsFTW]

I appreciate the reply.

There is reference in your own reply to an observer/spy lurking in the hedge with a pair of pliers. However as far as I have read, the only people that have made that accusation about lurking in hedge with pliers was Lampard originally I believe. I don't recollect the Derby police including that in any statement they released or anyone else stating that as fact. ( maybe I have overlooked it with my rose tinted glasses).

I understand the frustration about Bielsa revealing his information and I am not sure if he meant to undermine Derby specifically, I took it as more of an exercise to demonstrate how much information can be compiled on any team, using sources that are freely available in the public domain with a lot of graft. Derby being the hot topic meant they were the case study of choice.

This maybe a touch cynical, but Lampard could also use this information to his advantage, now knowing a teams strategy to nullify Derby, he can change things up to his advantage? A big ask I know.

For any punishment we face, I hope the emotion is taken out of it and it is reviewed for what it is, in my view its kind of like really bad manners. I won't say unsportsmanlike behaviour, I ain't buying that as I am sure that many, many clubs in the UK do it, they just don't get caught and would suggest the reality is it's common practice.

I understand that you may have no love for Leeds Fans or the club, however I would like to think that the type of fan that you dislike is becoming a minority. A thugs is a thug is a thug anywhere and I can't abide them regardless of club colours.

Most other clubs fans I encounter are genuinely good craic/banter if you aren't too fickle or an arse.

[MadAmster]

As do I yours LFTW. I have some very good friends who are of the DYS persuasion so I know that they are not all thugs. As for the players, the 70s team were thugs as well as being very talented players. I have always maintained that if they had spent more time playing football and less time kicking the opposition and trying to intimidate refs they would have won far more sliverware. IMO the 90s LU side that did so well and then diappeared without trace because the club had gambled way too far and had no money was also a team of thugs. The current crop are not in the same thug League as the 70s and 90s teams but they do sail pretty close to the wind and on occasion go too far. Take the keeper in our game at yours last week. I spent half my playing career between the sticks and am also a qualified keeper's trainer. Keepers are taught when jumping for a ball to bring one knee up to protect themselves from charges from opposition players. It's defensive move and well within the Laws of the game. When Holmes went for the ball, you keeper not only brought his knee up, he also then straightened his leg catching Holmes on the head with his studs. I realise Holmes is only 5 foot 6 but it is my considered opinion that the movement that led to the studs hitting the head was no accident. IMO it should have been a penalty. Possibly the only way we were going to score that day but, nevertheless, it was a penalty (Qualified and still active ref at 64). I am also of the opinion that there was absolutely no need to straighten the leg. It seems the legacy is still alive.

Of that 70s side one player was "Gentleman" Johnny Giles. He was no gentleman. Possibly the sneakiest, snidiest, underhanded off the ball behind the ref's back dispenser of kicks, elbows and nudges I have ever seen. Looking to get a reaction and get his victim booked or sent off.

This current lot look good. I just hope they let their football do the talking. If they do, I wish them success. If they don't....... same old Leeds.

Apart from that, I love 'em

[ramAnag]

As you posted on our site a couple of days back,

Paragraph 3.4 of Section 2 – Membership states: “In all matters and transactions relating to The League each Club shall behave towards each other Club and The League with the utmost good faith.”

I think it will be very difficult for the FA/EFL to justify a severe punishment against Leeds, on the basis it can be easily argued that Biesla has been working within the laws of the game, not done anything illegal or deceitful, so therefore acting in the utmost goodfaith.

Please don't misunderstand me, I really don't like the fact that we sent someone to observe your training session, especially if there was no merit to it. It not how I want my club to behave and I wouldn't be overly happy about other teams treating us the same way.

However I do know how vindictive the EFL/FA can be, especially to clubs that are opinionated ( for want of a better term).

For me, in this instance I feel that the FA/EFL are attempting to stretch the laws/rules of the game in order to try to justify a punishment on Leeds, because at the end of the day, Biesla has shown them up by how poor the rulebook is and that its governance is even worse.

Yes I think Biesla should get a punishment of some sort, even the club. I have stated before it should be a fine/touchline ban or made to play a few games behind closed doors.

I don't think we should be used to set a precedent. I feel it would be more logical to review the laws of the game and use Leeds as the excuse to tighten things up in that respect.

p.s. the reason I am posting here is because I wanted to understand for myself about how Derby fans felt about the situation and if you were more upset because it is Leeds and not another club.

Take it easy on me folks, I am not here to stir the pot just to have a good old fashioned honest, discussion/argument. (without causing offence I hope).

At last an intelligent and objective response from a Leeds fan. After all the personal attacks on Lampard and the nonsense from those who mistake the ability to post picture links for wit it makes a change, so thanks for that LeedsFTW.
My take is that there has been long standing hostility between Derby and Leeds which dates back to at least the early seventies and the animosity between Clough and Revie.
That is simply a fact and has undoubtedly contributed to the current situation although it is actually irrelevant.
The actual question is, imo, much simpler.

Is it acceptable for a manager/club to sanction the use of club employees to covertly visit opposition training facilities and attempt to gather information on personnel, formation, tactics etc while, in the process, interrupting that club’s preparation.

Bielsa obviously thinks it is and more to the point, believes it to be useful otherwise he wouldn’t organise such ‘visits’ on what would now appear to be a weekly basis.
In my opinion it isn’t. Gathering information via watching a rival team’s performance either live or on TV is one thing. That has gone on for ever and constitutes totally legitimate ‘research’.
But ‘spying’ on private practice for a specific match crosses the line and warrants punishment.
What that punishment should be is debatable. Personally I do not subscribe to the notion that we should be awarded the points. You thrashed us twice and that wasn’t just down to information gathered through any amount of ‘spying’
The fact remains though that it would now seem that LUFC have spied on every side while they have been preparing for a match against your team.
That surely constitutes an attempt to gain an unfair/unethical advantage. It should, imo, be punished by a significant points deduction otherwise a very dangerous precedent is set.
It’s a pity, because however much I may dislike Leeds I also acknowledge that you are, by some distance, the best side in the Championship so far this season.

[MadAmster]

At last an intelligent and objective response from a Leeds fan. After all the personal attacks on Lampard and the nonsense from those who mistake the ability to post picture links for wit it makes a change, so thanks for that LeedsFTW.
My take is that there has been long standing hostility between Derby and Leeds which dates back to at least the early seventies and the animosity between Clough and Revie.
That is simply a fact and has undoubtedly contributed to the current situation although it is actually irrelevant.
The actual question is, imo, much simpler.

Is it acceptable for a manager/club to sanction the use of club employees to covertly visit opposition training facilities and attempt to gather information on personnel, formation, tactics etc while, in the process, interrupting that club’s preparation.

Bielsa obviously thinks it is and more to the point, believes it to be useful otherwise he wouldn’t organise such ‘visits’ on what would now appear to be a weekly basis.
In my opinion it isn’t. Gathering information via watching a rival team’s performance either live or on TV is one thing. That has gone on for ever and constitutes totally legitimate ‘research’.
But ‘spying’ on private practice for a specific match crosses the line and warrants punishment.
What that punishment should be is debatable. Personally I do not subscribe to the notion that we should be awarded the points. You thrashed us twice and that wasn’t just down to information gathered through any amount of ‘spying’
The fact remains though that it would now seem that LUFC have spied on every side while they have been preparing for a match against your team.
That surely constitutes an attempt to gain an unfair/unethical advantage. It should, imo, be punished by a significant points deduction otherwise a very dangerous precedent is set.
It’s a pity, because however much I may dislike Leeds I also acknowledge that you are, by some distance, the best side in the Championship so far this season.

My POV exactly rA.

[george_kaplan]

At last an intelligent and objective response from a Leeds fan. After all the personal attacks on Lampard and the nonsense from those who mistake the ability to post picture links for wit it makes a change, so thanks for that LeedsFTW.
My take is that there has been long standing hostility between Derby and Leeds which dates back to at least the early seventies and the animosity between Clough and Revie.
That is simply a fact and has undoubtedly contributed to the current situation although it is actually irrelevant.
The actual question is, imo, much simpler.

Is it acceptable for a manager/club to sanction the use of club employees to covertly visit opposition training facilities and attempt to gather information on personnel, formation, tactics etc while, in the process, interrupting that club’s preparation.

Bielsa obviously thinks it is and more to the point, believes it to be useful otherwise he wouldn’t organise such ‘visits’ on what would now appear to be a weekly basis.
In my opinion it isn’t. Gathering information via watching a rival team’s performance either live or on TV is one thing. That has gone on for ever and constitutes totally legitimate ‘research’.
But ‘spying’ on private practice for a specific match crosses the line and warrants punishment.
What that punishment should be is debatable. Personally I do not subscribe to the notion that we should be awarded the points. You thrashed us twice and that wasn’t just down to information gathered through any amount of ‘spying’
The fact remains though that it would now seem that LUFC have spied on every side while they have been preparing for a match against your team.
That surely constitutes an attempt to gain an unfair/unethical advantage. It should, imo, be punished by a significant points deduction otherwise a very dangerous precedent is set.
It’s a pity, because however much I may dislike Leeds I also acknowledge that you are, by some distance, the best side in the Championship so far this season.

"Personal attacks" make me laugh will you. Why is it you lot always like to go back? to try and prove a long gone pointless point. DYS. How old are some of you on here?

I have a question for you, "unfair/unethical advantage" Do you think it's cheating and gaining a advantage by stealing yards and yards in a throw in? How about obvious time wasting? Trying to get players sent of, fake injuries etc. slow subbing, shirt pulling? etc, etc. Don't come all over the rules and what's right or wrong just to suit you and the rest of the LEEDS haters, because this is what it is really all about. Week in, week out all players all teams cheat on the field.
Sorry to disappoint a few on here but nothing will happen of any significance to our club in regards to this farce.

[ramAnag]

"Personal attacks" make me laugh will you. Why is it you lot always like to go back? to try and prove a long gone pointless point. DYS. How old are some of you on here?

I have a question for you, "unfair/unethical advantage" Do you think it's cheating and gaining a advantage by stealing yards and yards in a throw in? How about obvious time wasting? Trying to get players sent of, fake injuries etc. slow subbing, shirt pulling? etc, etc. Don't come all over the rules and what's right or wrong just to suit you and the rest of the LEEDS haters, because this is what it is really all about. Week in, week out all players all teams cheat on the field.
Sorry to disappoint a few on here but nothing will happen of any significance to our club in regards to this farce.

Oh c’mon...personal attacks...yes. So far in response to what Bielsa admits he’s done you lot have dragged up FL’s previous relationships and his alleged bad behaviour from over seven**** years ago.

Now you bring up all the aspects that are endemic in modern football as another distraction tactic as if they have any relevance whatsoever. Yes the game would be better without players feigning injury, ‘stealing yards’, ‘shirt pulling’ and all the other various forms of cheating.

But what the hell has that got to do with Bielsa sending his staff out to spy on other clubs training methods?

All they have in common is that they are all forms of cheating and when players get caught shirt pulling or diving etc, forgive me if I’m wrong, but...don’t they get punished and penalised?