O/T Labour

[jackal2]

“The kind of environment that Hitler thrived in” . Is that a warning or an aspiration?

Neither.

It's a fear, quoted only as a worst case example of what can happen when large numbers of ordinary people lose faith in their political establishments. Extremists can thrive if mainstream politicians stop listening, even in the most decent and moderate of societies.

Amazing though, that because my view on Brexit doesn't happen to entirely accord with yours, you are half-heartedly implying that I 'aspire' to such a scenario. Can you only cope with differing views by categorising those who disagree as having some sort of misguided or unpleasant agenda?

My position as one of the 52% is that Parliament voted to give people a Brexit referendum and should deliver on the result, which was to Leave the EU. That's democratic, not extreme.

[Trickytreesreds]

“The kind of environment that Hitler thrived in” . Is that a warning or an aspiration?

I think it is a general warning BFP.

I was watching the news presentation by the police yesterday, talking about the rise in far right terrorism.
Whilst it hasn't come anywhere near to Islam atrocities yet, it is definitely growing.
To be be fair, it is growing all over Europe, more so than the UK.

So you have ask yourself why?
Whats changed in the last 10 years to bring on this surge?

Without a doubt, the surge through Europe in immigration/the policies of the EU to strip national identities/ the general public being ignored in countries by their own governments. Pick one and ask the question.

So yes, the point is valid. It is the sort of environment in which Hitler thrived.
An angry population looking for answers and all it could take is a person with a nasty drive, to seize on it.

Kind of makes the EU's claim, that "we have brought peace to Europe" look rather shaky.

[Elite_Pie]

An angry population looking for answers and all it could take is a person with a nasty drive, to seize on it.

Someone like Nigel Farage?

[Bohinen]

Politicians with radical views often have to sacrifice their principles when they get to power because a lot of things are easier said than done. Look at Syriza in Greece or even Salvini in Italy.

Corbyn's problem is that he has gathered the votes of young idealistic voters who were disillusioned with mainstream politics (like Clegg did) but they are vehemently anti Brexit so anything that's not opposing Brexit or at least having a second referendum will alienate them.

But Corbyn's position on Brexit has not changed, he never tried to hoodwink young voters. Most of them don't vote anyway. To support a second referendum would alienate the majority of his constituencies, who voted Leave, and the MPs who represent them, and would again make Labour seem a London centric party that doesn't care about the North.

The reality is, much of this second referendum campaign is generated from London and also from the Scots, who don't return Labour MPs now anyway. Looking at England outside the London sphere of influence, Brexit is very popular but these people are not really represented by the media, whose focus is always what London wants.

[BigFatPie]

Neither.

It's a fear, quoted only as a worst case example of what can happen when large numbers of ordinary people lose faith in their political establishments. Extremists can thrive if mainstream politicians stop listening, even in the most decent and moderate of societies.

Amazing though, that because my view on Brexit doesn't happen to entirely accord with yours, you are half-heartedly implying that I 'aspire' to such a scenario. Can you only cope with differing views by categorising those who disagree as having some sort of misguided or unpleasant agenda?

My position as one of the 52% is that Parliament voted to give people a Brexit referendum and should deliver on the result, which was to Leave the EU. That's democratic, not extreme.

Spare me the sanctimony. You’re always going on about the fact that the Brexit vote was a reflection of the divides in the country without ever mentioning the fact that we’ve had a Tory led government for the past 9 years that may have contributed one little bit to exacerbating those divides. Those same Tories and their supporters in the press have managed to convince a large enough number of people that their problems are not caused by the inadequacies of their own government but by immigrants, foreigners and by extension, the EU. Classic fascist strategy. I find your conclusion that we should enable that strategy otherwise we might find ourselves with an even worse brand of facism abhorrent.

Besides which, there is already a white supremacist in the White House, a man who you, if I recall rightly, didn’t have many objections to when he became president. That was despite the fact that he came to power on the back of the racist birther movement. So forgive if I’m sceptical of your “warnings” about fascists.

[Bohinen]

Now everyone has had a chance to vent their spleen, let's look at some stats. This is taken from today's Guardian and will be an inconvenient truth for many.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-poll-suggests

Voters less likely to back Labour with 'stop Brexit' policy, leaked poll suggests

Unreleased poll for group backing second referendum finds almost a third would be less likely to back party

A leaked poll commissioned by the pro-EU Best for Britain campaign suggests that voters would be less likely to back Labour if the party was committed to stopping Brexit.

According to the poll, passed to the Guardian, almost a third of respondents said they would be less likely to vote Labour, a similar number to those who said it would not make a difference. Twenty-five per cent said it would make them more likely to back Labour, with the rest saying they did not know.

The campaign group, which is pushing for a second EU referendum, commissioned the as yet unreleased snap poll shortly before MPs voted down Theresa May’s Brexit deal. The Populus poll asked 2,000 people whether they would be more or less likely to vote Labour “if they commit to stop Brexit”.

No wonder they didn't release the results.

[jackal2]

Spare me the sanctimony. You’re always going on about the fact that the Brexit vote was a reflection of the divides in the country without ever mentioning the fact that we’ve had a Tory led government for the past 9 years that may have contributed one little bit to exacerbating those divides.

Labour's political strategy is based on creating, maintaining and increasing antagonism and separation between what it defines as the capitalist elites and what it considers to be the working classes. Entire generations grew up with the implicit or explicit message that "You should vote Labour because you're working class", with the implication that if you didn't, you weren't "one of us". It's how the unions built their powerbase. I think one of the many reasons Labourites so hated Margaret Thatcher was because she attracted large swathes of working class voters that Labour believed were its exclusive property.

Those same Tories and their supporters in the press have managed to convince a large enough number of people that their problems are not caused by the inadequacies of their own government but by immigrants, foreigners and by extension, the EU. Classic fascist strategy. I find your conclusion that we should enable that strategy otherwise we might find ourselves with an even worse brand of facism abhorrent.

So here you've taken the Leave result, super-imposed your own pre-conceived and self-reassuring interpretation of the reasons it came about, treated that interpretation as fact, and then agreed with yourself that this is why the result can be ignored. And of course you've used a bit of labelling to imply that Leave voters are either fascists or victims of fascists.

Actually, I would have thought that holding a public vote and then seeking to discredit and ignore the outcome when it doesn't match what you wanted is in itself a rather fascist or at least a dictatorial characteristic. Various tin pot despots around the world call elections and then annul the result when it threatens to undermine or end their power. That's what I call abhorrent!

Besides which, there is already a white supremacist in the White House, a man who you, if I recall rightly, didn’t have many objections to when he became president. That was despite the fact that he came to power on the back of the racist birther movement. So forgive if I’m sceptical of your “warnings” about fascists.

Half true. I didn't object to the result, because he won office through American's agreed electoral system. The stuff about coming to power on the back of racism is just you presenting your pre-conceived interpretations as fact again. Whatever you think of Trump, he appeared to play to, and draw significant amounts of support from, working class areas and people who simply felt that their views were no longer heard by the political establishment, including the Democratic Party that they had traditionally been led to believe was "their" voice.

[i961pie]

Labour's political strategy is based on creating, maintaining and increasing antagonism and separation between what it defines as the capitalist elites and what it considers to be the working classes. Entire generations grew up with the implicit or explicit message that "You should vote Labour because you're working class", with the implication that if you didn't, you weren't "one of us". It's how the unions built their powerbase. I think one of the many reasons Labourites so hated Margaret Thatcher was because she attracted large swathes of working class voters that Labour believed were its exclusive property.



So here you've taken the Leave result, super-imposed your own pre-conceived and self-reassuring interpretation of the reasons it came about, treated that interpretation as fact, and then agreed with yourself that this is why the result can be ignored. And of course you've used a bit of labelling to imply that Leave voters are either fascists or victims of fascists.

Actually, I would have thought that holding a public vote and then seeking to discredit and ignore the outcome when it doesn't match what you wanted is in itself a rather fascist or at least a dictatorial characteristic. Various tin pot despots around the world call elections and then annul the result when it threatens to undermine or end their power. That's what I call abhorrent!



Half true. I didn't object to the result, because he won office through American's agreed electoral system. The stuff about coming to power on the back of racism is just you presenting your pre-conceived interpretations as fact again. Whatever you think of Trump, he appeared to play to, and draw significant amounts of support from, working class areas and people who simply felt that their views were no longer heard by the political establishment, including the Democratic Party that they had traditionally been led to believe was "their" voice.

Trump also came to power by saying he would put America first and reduce unemployment which he as done, but that doesn't suite some people's agenda. It is easier just to play the immigration card.
I'm afraid BFG labels anyone who doesn't agree with his political view or who voted for brexit as thick uneducated racists.

[BigFatPie]

Labour's political strategy is based on creating, maintaining and increasing antagonism and separation between what it defines as the capitalist elites and what it considers to be the working classes. Entire generations grew up with the implicit or explicit message that "You should vote Labour because you're working class", with the implication that if you didn't, you weren't "one of us". It's how the unions built their powerbase. I think one of the many reasons Labourites so hated Margaret Thatcher was because she attracted large swathes of working class voters that Labour believed were its exclusive property.



So here you've taken the Leave result, super-imposed your own pre-conceived and self-reassuring interpretation of the reasons it came about, treated that interpretation as fact, and then agreed with yourself that this is why the result can be ignored. And of course you've used a bit of labelling to imply that Leave voters are either fascists or victims of fascists.

Actually, I would have thought that holding a public vote and then seeking to discredit and ignore the outcome when it doesn't match what you wanted is in itself a rather fascist or at least a dictatorial characteristic. Various tin pot despots around the world call elections and then annul the result when it threatens to undermine or end their power. That's what I call abhorrent!



Half true. I didn't object to the result, because he won office through American's agreed electoral system. The stuff about coming to power on the back of racism is just you presenting your pre-conceived interpretations as fact again. Whatever you think of Trump, he appeared to play to, and draw significant amounts of support from, working class areas and people who simply felt that their views were no longer heard by the political establishment, including the Democratic Party that they had traditionally been led to believe was "their" voice.

WTF is a “pre conceived interpretation”? Is it another long winded way of saying “opinion”? If it is your whole post is just a very long way of saying that your “pre conceived interpretations” are of more value than mine. Fair enough. But my pre conceived interpretation is still that you have far right sympathies, but try to dress them up in reasonable, flowery language. You’re a literate version of Trickytree.

1761Pie, if you’ve can find somewhere that I’ve said Brexit voters are thick, uneducated racists fire away, but you’ll be looking a while. I don’t think that at all, but some of your posts do make me wonder...

[navypie]

WTF is a “pre conceived interpretation”? Is it another long winded way of saying “opinion”? If it is your whole post is just a very long way of saying that your “pre conceived interpretations” are of more value than mine. Fair enough. But my pre conceived interpretation is still that you have far right sympathies, but try to dress them up in reasonable, flowery language. You’re a literate version of Trickytree.

1761Pie, if you’ve can find somewhere that I’ve said Brexit voters are thick, uneducated racists fire away, but you’ll be looking a while. I don’t think that at all, but some of your posts do make me wonder...

Great timing.