OT. Shamima Begum

[StensonRam]

Plus she was groomed, left the UK as a minor and has experienced significant trauma.

Could you please fill me in on the trauma she's experienced swale, I must of missed the bit where she was thrown off the top of a building while handcuffed and blindfolded or dowsed with petrol and set fire to while locked in cage or shot in the head and thrown into a river, maybe she was beheaded I don't know?

[ramAnag]

Yes we know all that, or at least I do, my opinion is the same. As I've stated many times before though, people like SB are one thing, blinkered apologists for them just as bad

I think you used the phrase ‘blinkered apologist’ to my initial response Andy and now you seem to be directing it at Swale.
It would be so easy to say nothing in the face of the populist nonsense which has been written about this girl but unfortunately, as is constantly illustrated on the Brexit thread, populism...i.e. unthinking, juvenile, knee jerk reaction seems to be the order of the day.

To be clear...I, and I suspect Swale, abhor terrorism and ISIS. I also think the girl acted incredibly stupidly and condemn her parents for feeling the need to now tell the British Government how to react when they failed to control their daughter in the first place.
Having said that...she was fif**** when she left and was effectively ‘groomed’ in much the same way as others who generate far greater sympathy have been.
I’m not sure how many of us would want to be judged on the basis of the behaviour of our ****age selves...but I am sure I expect our politicians, and frankly you too Andy, to react in a more adult, joined up, rational and less populist manner.

[StensonRam]

Wasn't her father investigated, arrested, charged with some offence relating to hate preaching and having one of the Muslim preachers as a close acquaintance, so he's not whiter than white himself is he, she knew what she was doing and so did her family and she probably even went with their blessing, now it's all gone rear shaped they're playing all innocent

[mistaram]

I think you used the phrase ‘blinkered apologist’ to my initial response Andy and now you seem to be directing it at Swale.
It would be so easy to say nothing in the face of the populist nonsense which has been written about this girl but unfortunately, as is constantly illustrated on the Brexit thread, populism...i.e. unthinking, juvenile, knee jerk reaction seems to be the order of the day.

To be clear...I, and I suspect Swale, abhor terrorism and ISIS. I also think the girl acted incredibly stupidly and condemn her parents for feeling the need to now tell the British Government how to react when they failed to control their daughter in the first place.
Having said that...she was fif**** when she left and was effectively ‘groomed’ in much the same way as others who generate far greater sympathy have been.
I’m not sure how many of us would want to be judged on the basis of the behaviour of our ****age selves...but I am sure I expect our politicians, and frankly you too Andy, to react in a more adult, joined up, rational and less populist manner.

RA I have to admire your sympathetic nature But this is not the naive 15year old you make her out to be She's not some shoplifter she's someone who hates and wants to harm this country You talk about her being radicalized that can only happen if you either look for it in line or at a place of worship that preaches it By her commission became obsessed by watching beheading videos of captured hostages She has justified the Manchester bombing Even justifies the rape and enslavement of Yazidi women Evan her own father has said she doesn't deserve sympathy because she doesn't regret anything You have a point about parenting but even the police went to Bethnal Academy three times to personally warn her against travelling to Syria

[ramAnag]

RA I have to admire your sympathetic nature But this is not the naive 15year old you make her out to be She's not some shoplifter she's someone who hates and wants to harm this country You talk about her being radicalized that can only happen if you either look for it in line or at a place of worship that preaches it By her commission became obsessed by watching beheading videos of captured hostages She has justified the Manchester bombing Even justifies the rape and enslavement of Yazidi women Evan her own father has said she doesn't deserve sympathy because she doesn't regret anything You have a point about parenting but even the police went to Bethnal Academy three times to personally warn her against travelling to Syria

I’m not particularly sympathetic, mista and I think she’s stupid rather than naive.
The family thing is confused...on the one hand we have Stenson’s view and on the other, your suggestion about her father. I’ve no idea who’s right.
I think she’s damaged goods...can’t help but be after all that’s happened and I totally condemn the Manchester bombing and any other terrorist atrocity, but there is unfortunately a very fine line between innocents being killed in those sort of circumstances...MEN Arena, Birmingham, Warrington, to name but three and by the sort of aerial bombardments that western governments sometimes ‘legitimately’ but largely indiscriminately unleash.
All I’m saying is that the whole matter is far more complicated than the sort of Dirty Harry, ‘eye for an eye’ populist mentality would have us believe and we do have responsibilities in terms of international law.

[mistaram]

I’m not particularly sympathetic, mista and I think she’s stupid rather than naive.
The family thing is confused...on the one hand we have Stenson’s view and on the other, your suggestion about her father. I’ve no idea who’s right.
I think she’s damaged goods...can’t help but be after all that’s happened and I totally condemn the Manchester bombing and any other terrorist atrocity, but there is unfortunately a very fine line between innocents being killed in those sort of circumstances...MEN Arena, Birmingham, Warrington, to name but three and by the sort of aerial bombardments that western governments sometimes ‘legitimately’ but largely indiscriminately unleash.
All I’m saying is that the whole matter is far more complicated than the sort of Dirty Harry, ‘eye for an eye’ populist mentality would have us believe and we do have responsibilities in terms of international law.

On Feb24th her father Ahmid Ali said " If She at least admitted she made a mistake then I would feel for her but she does not accept her wrong"
Her brother in law Muhammad Raham urged the public to support the government decision

[AdiSalisbury]

The difference between the RAF bombs and the MEN massacre are huge. One is a legal and targeted bombing of a direct threat to human life (of all nationalities) based on intelligence, the other is an act of hatred against innocent people and nothing more.

These ISIS fighters cannot hide behind the farce of revenge for any aerial attack, if they know an installation has been discovered and will be bombed, they throw innocent people in the way and run off down tunnels, then claim the west are bombing innocents. The only thing they stand for is the evil of their beliefs, it's sod all to do with revenge for indiscriminate attacks. They care little for innocent civilians in their homeland, and most aren't even from the land that they fight and claim.

This woman renounced her British citizenship with her actions, and as such, doesn't deserve our protection. These people don't observe any human rights in their actions, so why should they be afforded any themselves. She's lucky not to have been shot by a British soldier, that in my opinion is more than she deserves from us.

[ramAnag]

The difference between the RAF bombs and the MEN massacre are huge. One is a legal and targeted bombing of a direct threat to human life (of all nationalities) based on intelligence, the other is an act of hatred against innocent people and nothing more.

These ISIS fighters cannot hide behind the farce of revenge for any aerial attack, if they know an installation has been discovered and will be bombed, they throw innocent people in the way and run off down tunnels, then claim the west are bombing innocents. The only thing they stand for is the evil of their beliefs, it's sod all to do with revenge for indiscriminate attacks. They care little for innocent civilians in their homeland, and most aren't even from the land that they fight and claim.

This woman renounced her British citizenship with her actions, and as such, doesn't deserve our protection. These people don't observe any human rights in their actions, so why should they be afforded any themselves. She's lucky not to have been shot by a British soldier, that in my opinion is more than she deserves from us.

I appreciate your anger, Adi, but for those victims who are genuinely innocent, eg all children and most ordinary citizens, does it make much difference whether the bombing is ‘legal and targeted’ or orchestrated by terrorists?

[AdiSalisbury]

those innocents deaths are being orchestrated by terrorists, the RAF don't target civilians, ISIS throw them in front of bombs or execute them, that's why we have cobra making decisions than putting it to Parliament, so targets can be struck before the human shield is put up.

[ramAnag]

those innocents deaths are being orchestrated by terrorists, the RAF don't target civilians, ISIS throw them in front of bombs or execute them, that's why we have cobra making decisions than putting it to Parliament, so targets can be struck before the human shield is put up.

Really? I genuinely respect your opinions on this forum but in this case I think you’re being naive.
Whether it was the London blitz, Hiroshima, the bombings of Coventry, Dresden or Liverpool or more recent bombing campaigns in Iraq or Afghanistan, the civilians may not be ‘targeted’ but they are, without doubt, often the casualties.
I’m not defending Begum’s attempt to justify the indefensible but it is a more morally complex issue than some would make out.